| Why can't we pass the ball? 16:20 - Jan 22 with 4006 views | PhilmyRs |
The easy answer and what most will say is we’re sh&t. To an extent I agree but I still have memories of Newcastle home and City home last season where I was proud of the shift and quality of performance. I know some players have gone but why as a team can we barely string a move together with the ball?
Last season against Newcastle was one of the highlights, we lined up with the following team:
Jay B
SWP Adel
Barton Derry Faurlin
Traore Ferdinand Gabidon Young
Kenny
Now looking at that line-up last season I don’t think it’ great, so why are we suddenly sh*t at passing the ball now? Is it because of our lack of a target man that can link it together? Supposedly tailor made for BZ if he liked football. Is it because Mr Barton has gone and we lack his bite and workrate during games? Is it because Faurlin has yet to recover from his serious injury and can’t resume his orchestral duties? Or is it the failure to hold on to the poise, and elegance of Danny Gabidon, the rock of our defence...
This leads me to wonder — purely on ball retention — are some of the old guard (Hill, Derry, Mackie, Nelsen *For his age*) part of the problem?
The above all shed blood for the cause and have clearly helped with the clean sheets in recent weeks, but are they hindering us going forward? Or more specifically, keeping the ball? Mackie can run all day and hurry opponents but he rarely play’s an incisive pass, one that opens up the game helping us move the ball quicker. I know that’s not his game but he often receives possession and runs down blind alleys, although admittedly forces an error from the opposition as a result. In helping to keep the ball, this isn’t always the best tactic.
Derry does an excellent job patrolling in front of the back four but with such slow centre backs we’re ridiculously deep at times. Situations regularly arise where Derry picks the ball up close to his centre backs — not a bad thing per se — but because they’re so fearful of pace Hill and Nelsen are stood dangerously deep which means Derry is as well. Derry then finds himself with the ball with no option in site. As a result we play it up quickly and due to a lack of a hold up player it comes right back.
I know our players aren’t as good as they think, but last season we did manage to put in some decent footballing performances and should be able to again as Spurs and Chelsea as this season showed.
My view is that Derry, Mackie, Nelsen and Hill are excellent pros but shouldn’t be in the same side together unless it will be a real backs against the wall type of match. In the coming weeks we’ll have games where we’ll have to take the game to the opposition, I don’t think with all 4 of them in the side we can do it.
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| Why can't we pass the ball? on 16:35 - Jan 22 with 3987 views | adhoc_qpr |
It's not just those players though is it?
Mbia, Onouha, SWP, Park et al are all equally profligate with the ball and frequently give it away carelessly.
It's something the whole team needs to work at on the training ground - team shape, transition from defence to attack, passing in triangles, offering an option to the man on the ball etc etc | | | |
| Why can't we pass the ball? on 16:40 - Jan 22 with 3978 views | Tonto |
add in a bit of desperation, trying too hard, not trying hard enough, a new manager with new ideas. it all adds up to a recipie for disaster... |  |
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| Why can't we pass the ball? on 16:48 - Jan 22 with 3960 views | PhilmyRs |
| Why can't we pass the ball? on 16:35 - Jan 22 by adhoc_qpr |
It's not just those players though is it?
Mbia, Onouha, SWP, Park et al are all equally profligate with the ball and frequently give it away carelessly.
It's something the whole team needs to work at on the training ground - team shape, transition from defence to attack, passing in triangles, offering an option to the man on the ball etc etc |
Picking out Mackie is slightly harsh as I agree Park, SWP are often guilty of similar errors.
However, do you not think it’s a problem trying to keep the ball if you defend 10/15 yards deeper than you should? Triangles, quick passing is pleasing on the eye but like you’ve alluded to it’s done as a team, having options, being close together, all achieved via working ‘as a team’. If your 2 centre backs and your holding midfielder are a lot deeper than everyone else, unless they are experts on the ball they’ll either have to go wide to the full back as the full back will have to show for the ball meaning they too will be deep, or demonstrate some composure on the ball and bring it forward, or hit a long ball. If the opposition press you, you’re in trouble. You play a higher line it’s easier to get in people’s faces and in turn not have to go long so much.
We have a system designed to make us hard to break down. We have Hill, Nelsen and Derry acting as a midfield shield, we have another centre midfield player in Mbia who has also played at centre back, a right winger in Mackie that offers decent defensive cover, and a left winger who has seemingly converted himself in to someone that offers decent defensive cover too. Throw in to the mix one of the best keepers in the league and is it any wonder we’re harder to beat.
As I said, soon the onus will be on us to attack when we come up against lesser teams. With the 4 I mentioned in the original post, I think it could be hard to break them down.
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| Why can't we pass the ball? on 17:08 - Jan 22 with 3937 views | WestbourneR |
Mark Hughes was generally a general disaster.
But it was noticable that we were pretty good at keeping possesion under him. Most of the time were total inert while doing it but we did at least keep the ball for long periods (West Brom away).
A bit of that would have been handy after we took the lead at Wet Spam.
I think Granero or someone of his ilk along with Faurlin are key to keeping the ball. |  |
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| Why can't we pass the ball? on 17:12 - Jan 22 with 3933 views | BromleyHoop |
I'd say over the course of a season and a half we've developed an inferiority complex as a team. We don't expect to win games, we don't expect to string a beautiful passing movement together, we don't expect to dominate other teams. We expect to generally have a bit of a 'backs to the wall' attitude, defend pluckily and pass the ball to Adel to try and beat three players and score. Imagine if he got injured for the rest of the season; it just doesn't bare thinking about.
The sooner people realise that we are bottom of the league for a reason the better.....we ain't very good. We've improved under Redknapp and may have the odd good 30 minutes here and there but, in general, the ability to compete with any sort of competence avoids us.
Not once this season have I seen us perform like Southampton did last night and we've supposedly got a far superior squad. Despite well meaning individuals, as a club, i think we've lost our way, the transfer market revolving door has been utterly counter productive (and continues to be). We have become a byword for greed by players and agents.
In short, we have lost our integrity, and personally speaking, it hurts.
Edit: Rant over and, yes, I've had a bad day.
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| Why can't we pass the ball? on 17:37 - Jan 22 with 3881 views | DylanP |
Under 'arry we have basically been playing with two defensive midfielders in front of the back four. We are doing so at the expense of passing midfielders like Granero and Faurlin. MBia and Derry are not in there to pass the ball round nicely. They are there to protect the defense. There is a missing link between the defensive unit of 7 players and Adel, Mackie and SWP. |  |
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| Why can't we pass the ball? on 18:20 - Jan 22 with 3832 views | WatfordR |
| Why can't we pass the ball? on 17:37 - Jan 22 by DylanP |
Under 'arry we have basically been playing with two defensive midfielders in front of the back four. We are doing so at the expense of passing midfielders like Granero and Faurlin. MBia and Derry are not in there to pass the ball round nicely. They are there to protect the defense. There is a missing link between the defensive unit of 7 players and Adel, Mackie and SWP. |
The problems start at the back IMO. As good as Nelsen and Hill are in the air, they will struggle when exposed to someone running at them behind our midfield because they lack pace.
Derry gets his place in the starting line up because he is probably the only one of our midfielders who consistently shows the discipline to sit and protect the defence. Diakite and Mbia both like to take the ball forward and try to get forward to support.
With a pacier CB pairing, I think it's possible that we could get away with either Mbia or Diakite playing the defensive midfield role, and with Faurlin or Granero playing alongside one of those in CM. The controlled passing link between defence and midfield is available, which in turn allows us to create more controlled attacking movements, with more players able to join in the attack.
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| Why can't we pass the ball? on 21:06 - Jan 22 with 3761 views | WestonsuperR |
I agree that we have very little chance of winning the 7/8 matches we need to stay up if we continue to play as we are. It's imperative that we now become more attacking and take a few chances, if these means letting in a few more the so be it, because we won't win many paying as we are.
I guess we will probably have to do something like sacrifice Derry for Granero for some of the matches against the teams in bottom half of the Prem. |  | | |
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| Why can't we pass the ball? on 21:15 - Jan 22 with 3738 views | connell10 |
nah we are just SHITE! |  |
| AND WHEN I DREAM , I DREAM ABOUT YOU AND WHEN I SCREAM I SCREAM ABOUT YOU!!!!! | | Poll: | best number 10 ever? |
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| Why can't we pass the ball? on 21:20 - Jan 22 with 3727 views | THEBUSH |
| Why can't we pass the ball? on 18:20 - Jan 22 by WatfordR |
The problems start at the back IMO. As good as Nelsen and Hill are in the air, they will struggle when exposed to someone running at them behind our midfield because they lack pace.
Derry gets his place in the starting line up because he is probably the only one of our midfielders who consistently shows the discipline to sit and protect the defence. Diakite and Mbia both like to take the ball forward and try to get forward to support.
With a pacier CB pairing, I think it's possible that we could get away with either Mbia or Diakite playing the defensive midfield role, and with Faurlin or Granero playing alongside one of those in CM. The controlled passing link between defence and midfield is available, which in turn allows us to create more controlled attacking movements, with more players able to join in the attack.
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Football used to be a simple game, where did it all go wrong ? |  | | |
| Why can't we pass the ball? on 22:02 - Jan 22 with 3683 views | baz_qpr |
The lack of pace in defence means we defend deep, this means the forward is isolated from the the rest of the team. We also dont have wide players who are able to play keep ball and allow the attack to come out.
For most of this season we have played with a two in midfield against teams playing a three. we also dont have a number 9 who can hold the ball up.
Bottom line we are strongly unbalanced, we need pace in the defence to allow the defence to play higher then we can pass and move a lot easier. Also we need to have a 9 that can hold the ball up and have Adel in a wide position to give us an alternative out ball from defence |  | | |
| Why can't we pass the ball? on 22:07 - Jan 22 with 3673 views | TacticalR |
Away to West Ham it felt like we had got so used to defensive mode, that we'd forgotten how to retain the ball. There were a lot of fast overhit passes in midfield, perhaps due to nerves, or perhaps due to West Ham pressing us.
This is what I said about our game at home to WBA:
'We have a lot of players who run with the ball, but are lacking in good decision-making about when to pass to other players (and I am not just talking about Taarabt).'
However, I don't just think it's about the decision-making of the individual player with the ball, it's also about the other players being in a good position to receive the ball (not to near and not too far). Teams like Southampton seem to have much more of a pattern to their game than we do.
Derry is pretty good at getting into space to receive a pass. However, he gets stuck if there is no-one in front of him (which in theory that shouldn't happen i.e. there should always be someone in front of him). |  |
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| Why can't we pass the ball? on 22:19 - Jan 22 with 3647 views | noauthority |
It's interesting you mention the Newcastle game. We were also excellent in the next match at Wolves.
Jay B had such a mixed game against Newcastle - he missed numerous sitters but his lay off play and movement were imo exceptional.
The following two games after Newcastle were on Sky and both times one of the commentators mentioned having been at the training ground where Warnock had been telling Ferdinand and Gabbidon to stop passing the ball out from the back and play it long.
This is very much a British approach to football. From grass roots up physical presence, speed, clenched fists, aggressiveness, seeming effort etc are valued way above passing, movement, technique etc.
Warnock for all of his good points missed a trick and probably contributed to what looked a really promising side become a poor one.
Footballs relatively simple but not that simple, while people scream get rid, simple ball and see passing out from the back as detrimental (more often than not it will result in ball retention rather than conceding a goal) we will continue to see it as simpler than it is.
Similar thing happened with Magilton, great start to the season with lots of decent passing football. Wolves away again if I'm right stood out. Leicester came to Loftus Road, they'd done their research at the time our build up from the back tended to go to Faurlin who would then seek out Buzz who was playing left wing at the time. Leicester made sure someone always covered Faurlin's pass out to Buzz and intercepted numerous times - they won the game.
Instead of working on other players finding space and offering to receive the pass from Faurlin, that's have kept the spare man intercepting the pass out to Buzz busy, we reverted to long ball and went downhill from there.
That leads me to my last point -
In England everyone says pass and move. That usually means pass and then run in a straight line at goal. We miss a step in the process.
As they say at Barca - "pass - offer - receive". It's a mantra to them.
The offer being moving into space to give an/other option to the guy you've just passed too.
The receive being able to control the ball when/if it's back passed to you.
Without options - off the ball movement and decent ball receiving skills from your team mates a great passer is going to struggle.
If your ever in Europe and get the chance to watch a kick around do so. You'll be amazed by the level of technique, passing and off the ball movement.
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| Why can't we pass the ball? on 22:24 - Jan 22 with 3637 views | noauthority |
I'm not sure a hold up player is necessary if a team plays passing football. Nor is an out ball required.
If the players ahead of you move into space and give you options there's really no need to lump it long/play the out ball.
But if everyone rigidly holds their position and marks their marker then yes hold up players and out balls are required.
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| Why can't we pass the ball? on 23:03 - Jan 22 with 3604 views | baz_qpr |
| Why can't we pass the ball? on 22:24 - Jan 22 by noauthority |
I'm not sure a hold up player is necessary if a team plays passing football. Nor is an out ball required.
If the players ahead of you move into space and give you options there's really no need to lump it long/play the out ball.
But if everyone rigidly holds their position and marks their marker then yes hold up players and out balls are required.
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Not against a 5 man midfield pressing high up the park and getting tight to their man. If you dont have an out ball you cant stretch teams in order to give yourself the space to play in. Like all these things its a balance, if a 4-2-3-1 formation is to work its reliant on a number 9 to hold the ball and give time to the runners to overlap. The higher up the field your defence plays the less likely you are to play it long because you can move forwards as a unit.
As a case in point for all he got wrong at the club the way Hughes had us play Swansea last season showed that being a purely "passing side" is in many ways as flawed as being a direct team. Its predictable and can be countered because you dont have to worry about the space in behind you. | | | |
| Why can't we pass the ball? on 23:13 - Jan 22 with 3591 views | karlski |
| Why can't we pass the ball? on 17:12 - Jan 22 by BromleyHoop |
I'd say over the course of a season and a half we've developed an inferiority complex as a team. We don't expect to win games, we don't expect to string a beautiful passing movement together, we don't expect to dominate other teams. We expect to generally have a bit of a 'backs to the wall' attitude, defend pluckily and pass the ball to Adel to try and beat three players and score. Imagine if he got injured for the rest of the season; it just doesn't bare thinking about.
The sooner people realise that we are bottom of the league for a reason the better.....we ain't very good. We've improved under Redknapp and may have the odd good 30 minutes here and there but, in general, the ability to compete with any sort of competence avoids us.
Not once this season have I seen us perform like Southampton did last night and we've supposedly got a far superior squad. Despite well meaning individuals, as a club, i think we've lost our way, the transfer market revolving door has been utterly counter productive (and continues to be). We have become a byword for greed by players and agents.
In short, we have lost our integrity, and personally speaking, it hurts.
Edit: Rant over and, yes, I've had a bad day.
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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I think you may be onto something here with the inferiority complex and way we approach games. I also think, though, that Redknapp decided the first thing he could do was make us hard(er) to beat, and then focus on building a pattern of play from there.
MK Dons this weekend is a perfect opportunity to be more expansive, to remind the players what it is like to control a game with the ball, to encourage them to play a bit of football in a more relaxed game - Faurlin and/or Granero (if fit) would play for me. I'm all for a cup run and everything but this game needs to be used as a developmental step for the team. The flip side though is that means playing a first team when a few days later we have City at home. | | | |
| Why can't we pass the ball? on 19:35 - Jan 23 with 3460 views | pomanjou |
| Why can't we pass the ball? on 21:20 - Jan 22 by THEBUSH |
Football used to be a simple game, where did it all go wrong ? |
I'd like to see us play 2 3 5 with two fullback, left half, centre half right half,
left winger inside left centre forward inside right and right winger.
The left and right halfs chunelling back and forth and ditto the inside forwards inexhaustibly, the centre forward going thru brik shitenhousens taking the centre half and goalie out in the process. The centrue half will repel all attackers at all costs as will the full backs and the wingers will be very tricky and move at 100mph leaving everyone trailing in their wake.
oh yes.
that is all. |  |
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| Why can't we pass the ball? on 20:31 - Jan 23 with 3427 views | BromleyHoop |
| Why can't we pass the ball? on 19:35 - Jan 23 by pomanjou |
I'd like to see us play 2 3 5 with two fullback, left half, centre half right half,
left winger inside left centre forward inside right and right winger.
The left and right halfs chunelling back and forth and ditto the inside forwards inexhaustibly, the centre forward going thru brik shitenhousens taking the centre half and goalie out in the process. The centrue half will repel all attackers at all costs as will the full backs and the wingers will be very tricky and move at 100mph leaving everyone trailing in their wake.
oh yes.
that is all. |
I hear that Charles 'Charlie' Charles may be available on a free. Devastating footwork. | |
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| Why can't we pass the ball? on 21:53 - Jan 23 with 3394 views | noauthority |
| Why can't we pass the ball? on 23:03 - Jan 22 by baz_qpr |
Not against a 5 man midfield pressing high up the park and getting tight to their man. If you dont have an out ball you cant stretch teams in order to give yourself the space to play in. Like all these things its a balance, if a 4-2-3-1 formation is to work its reliant on a number 9 to hold the ball and give time to the runners to overlap. The higher up the field your defence plays the less likely you are to play it long because you can move forwards as a unit.
As a case in point for all he got wrong at the club the way Hughes had us play Swansea last season showed that being a purely "passing side" is in many ways as flawed as being a direct team. Its predictable and can be countered because you dont have to worry about the space in behind you. |
If a 5 man midfield presses high against a passing side, then a passing team can counter as follows:
- ensure the player being pressed has plenty of options via team mates close by moving off their man and finding space, not always space ahead sometimes to the side and sometimes even behind
- get the striker/attacking midfielders to make runs, find space and offer to receive the ball ahead to feet rather than with back to goal. 4231 doesn't require a target man imo and more often than not in Europe doesn't use one either
If the striker and/or one or even two of the three are looking to make runs to pick up accurate long range aimed passes in front of them (not hoofs) then the opposition certainly have to worry about the space behind them.
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