| Camps or Allen? 23:15 - Mar 21 with 3450 views | JimmyRustler |
In my opinion, the midfield got bypassed a fair bit tonight due to the fact that there wasn't a stopper in there (probably Lund when fit) and I also do believe that Allen and Camps are too similar in that they're both luxury, ball playing midfielders (I mean that in a good way).
I think we all agree that Lund is an automatic starter when fit and I personally think that Rathbone should also play as he brings something different to the centre of the park. In my mind that means we have to choose between Camps or Allen for a starting berth.
I'm aware that people will probably disagree with me on this but either way it's still an interesting question. So, who would you rather have? |  | | |  |
| Camps or Allen? on 23:21 - Mar 21 with 3426 views | VivaDonaldo |
I see where you're coming from but I think the best midfield we have is Lund,Camps and Allen. The real question is when Lund isn't available do we have an adequate replacement.
I think with a full pre season Kitching could be our (provided Lund re-signs) Lund back up. |  | | |
| Camps or Allen? on 23:23 - Mar 21 with 3403 views | Shun |
Camps for me as he's stronger and gets muscled off the ball less than Allen. Plus, he has a goal factor that Allen's lacked since his breakthrough half-season.
Allen is more tenacious and probably a better passer, and at times he can completely dictate a game - such as at Scunthorpe last week. However, those games are rare this season and if I'm honest I don't think he's progressed as much as we all would've liked (and expected him to) since the aforementioned breakthrough season.
So Camps gets the nod for me. A midfield of Lund, Camps and Rathbone with Allen and Cannon as backup is dreamy. |  | | |
| Camps or Allen? on 23:26 - Mar 21 with 3378 views | boromat |
Depends on how many central midfielders we're playing with. For me Lund, Camps and Allen are our best midfield trio. If you're going for two its Lund and Allen for me I think Allen covers more ground than Camps. Rathbone is decent in the number 10 role I've never see him play well in central midfield he looks lost but will come with time.
Today I think Allen and Camps were bypassed by the pitch to be fair especially in the second half they were struggling to stay on their feet never mind turn, chase and press. It was the sort of game Lund would have been useful in. | |
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| Camps or Allen? on 23:26 - Mar 21 with 3376 views | JimmyRustler |
| Camps or Allen? on 23:21 - Mar 21 by VivaDonaldo |
I see where you're coming from but I think the best midfield we have is Lund,Camps and Allen. The real question is when Lund isn't available do we have an adequate replacement.
I think with a full pre season Kitching could be our (provided Lund re-signs) Lund back up. |
I think a midfielder like Lund at this level is virtually irreplaceable. He's our best player IMO. If we even come close to replacing him then we've done well. | | | |
| Camps or Allen? on 23:34 - Mar 21 with 3337 views | sweetcorn |
Personally dont see them as similar players. Allen is the type of midfielder who sets the tempo of a game, always willing to make himself an option when someone has the ball and always makes the right pass. Where as camps is a bit more creative with an eye for goal.
If i was chosing between the two, it'd be jamie. Camps at times is frustrating to watch and often tries some form of flick rather than a simple 5 yard pass. Also guilty of making the wrong decision quite often, perfect example tonight in the second half, rather than playing hendo through he held on to the ball for too long and had a speculative shot blocked.
Dont think it has to be one or the other, as i think our best midfield is camps, lund and allen, but what i do know is that if we ever deploy 2 in the middle like we did for the first 30 today, it cant be allen and camps, theres simply not enough bite in there. |  |
| Leader of the little gang of immature cretins. |
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| Camps or Allen? on 23:35 - Mar 21 with 3330 views | Daley_Lama |
Lund plays the 'Makelele role' that could never be replaced.
Then they signed Kante.
Can't decide on Allen v Camps, think both have chances of really going far in the game.
Allen is a proper baller, his control and vision is great.
Camps is still raw for me, glimpses of what he can become. |  |
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| Camps or Allen? on 23:41 - Mar 21 with 3299 views | sweetcorn |
| Camps or Allen? on 23:35 - Mar 21 by Daley_Lama |
Lund plays the 'Makelele role' that could never be replaced.
Then they signed Kante.
Can't decide on Allen v Camps, think both have chances of really going far in the game.
Allen is a proper baller, his control and vision is great.
Camps is still raw for me, glimpses of what he can become. |
Personally dont see lund as a similar player to makelele..
Makelele was an out and out defensive midfielder breaking play up in the middle.
Lund is a legit box to box midfielder, whos just as confident going forward as he is defending. Lunds goalscoring record for us is pretty solid for a midfielder.. | |
| Leader of the little gang of immature cretins. |
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| Camps or Allen? on 23:42 - Mar 21 with 3285 views | 442Dale |
| Camps or Allen? on 23:35 - Mar 21 by Daley_Lama |
Lund plays the 'Makelele role' that could never be replaced.
Then they signed Kante.
Can't decide on Allen v Camps, think both have chances of really going far in the game.
Allen is a proper baller, his control and vision is great.
Camps is still raw for me, glimpses of what he can become. |
Makalele sat. Lund and Kante don't. |  |
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| Camps or Allen? on 23:51 - Mar 21 with 3259 views | Daley_Lama |
Agree with both, but when we play our bestest bestest midfield and all things are going for us, Lund gets that role. Camps/Allen/Rathbone play further forward.
Not visible tonight until late on when Raff got it.
We actually played 2 wing backs (peter v and bunney) and two wingers tonight (NML and Calvin) early on. | |
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| Camps or Allen? on 23:58 - Mar 21 with 3231 views | 442Dale |
| Camps or Allen? on 23:51 - Mar 21 by Daley_Lama |
Agree with both, but when we play our bestest bestest midfield and all things are going for us, Lund gets that role. Camps/Allen/Rathbone play further forward.
Not visible tonight until late on when Raff got it.
We actually played 2 wing backs (peter v and bunney) and two wingers tonight (NML and Calvin) early on. |
Lund hasn't played that role though. Earlier in the season during our good run, Camps was the one playing deepest. Prior to that it was Allen.
Lund can play there, but it's certainly not his best position due to his goal threat.
Edit: of course there have been spells in games where Lund may have been employed deeper, but he is not, nor should he be, our designated defensive midfielder. Half the player when he is. [Post edited 22 Mar 2017 0:02]
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| Camps or Allen? on 00:00 - Mar 22 with 3220 views | dingdangblue |
| Camps or Allen? on 23:42 - Mar 21 by 442Dale |
Makalele sat. Lund and Kante don't. |
Lund will be sat on the bench Sunday. |  |
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| Camps or Allen? on 00:27 - Mar 22 with 3152 views | Daley_Lama |
| Camps or Allen? on 23:58 - Mar 21 by 442Dale |
Lund hasn't played that role though. Earlier in the season during our good run, Camps was the one playing deepest. Prior to that it was Allen.
Lund can play there, but it's certainly not his best position due to his goal threat.
Edit: of course there have been spells in games where Lund may have been employed deeper, but he is not, nor should he be, our designated defensive midfielder. Half the player when he is. [Post edited 22 Mar 2017 0:02]
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I saw it as Lund deeper mostly this season, perhaps they circled.
When Lund out, Rafferty went into his shoes. He parked his bum in front of the back 4 (very well apart from at Peterborough) | |
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| Camps or Allen? on 00:37 - Mar 22 with 3135 views | 442Dale |
| Camps or Allen? on 00:27 - Mar 22 by Daley_Lama |
I saw it as Lund deeper mostly this season, perhaps they circled.
When Lund out, Rafferty went into his shoes. He parked his bum in front of the back 4 (very well apart from at Peterborough) |
Nope. As illustrated by his goalscoring throughout the season, including the hat-trick at Northampton, Lund has been the classic 'all-round' midfielder in the Bryan Robson mould.
Lund had already been missing for a couple of games before Rafferty was used in front of the back four. Both Allen and Camps made way for him over that period, sharing responsibilities themselves in Lund's more box to box role.
There have been games when two midfielders have started deeper with one advanced, but even when Lund has been one of those he's not sat solely there with a responsibility to screen the defence. | |
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| Camps or Allen? on 01:17 - Mar 22 with 3096 views | Daley_Lama |
We've gone away from the original subject, so I will finish as follows.
Lund: Automatic starter - every game for me above all in midfield.
Best position: Attacking midfielder
Where has he played most this season? Holding midfielder. Especially noticeable when Rathbone was playing
Dale have throughout this season with the very oddest of exceptions (tonight for example) played
4 defenders
1 defensive midfielder
2 not so defensive midfielders
3 others
It's not a new thing to see under Hilly, he played with the defensive midfielder last season, be it Bennett or Rose or whoever.
The "1 defensive midfielder" has for the most part been Lund for me. There are obvious exceptions when he wasn't in that role and equally, he is not just a defensive player at all, far from it. , When it wasn't Lund it was Rafferty. Especially when Davies/Rathbone were on the pitch and Rathbone was given a bit of licence to roam.
My three would be
Lund - Allen - Rathbone - but only if Davies was playing
Lund - Allen - Camps if not | |
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| Camps or Allen? on 03:41 - Mar 22 with 3032 views | downunder |
Enjoyed this thread. For the past few years I have been learning the tactical side to go with my "skills and fitness" approach when coaching kids and women's teams.
I understand about Lund playing the Makelele role. Same as George Formby? |  | | |
| Camps or Allen? on 07:06 - Mar 22 with 2920 views | TVOS1907 |
| Camps or Allen? on 01:17 - Mar 22 by Daley_Lama |
We've gone away from the original subject, so I will finish as follows.
Lund: Automatic starter - every game for me above all in midfield.
Best position: Attacking midfielder
Where has he played most this season? Holding midfielder. Especially noticeable when Rathbone was playing
Dale have throughout this season with the very oddest of exceptions (tonight for example) played
4 defenders
1 defensive midfielder
2 not so defensive midfielders
3 others
It's not a new thing to see under Hilly, he played with the defensive midfielder last season, be it Bennett or Rose or whoever.
The "1 defensive midfielder" has for the most part been Lund for me. There are obvious exceptions when he wasn't in that role and equally, he is not just a defensive player at all, far from it. , When it wasn't Lund it was Rafferty. Especially when Davies/Rathbone were on the pitch and Rathbone was given a bit of licence to roam.
My three would be
Lund - Allen - Rathbone - but only if Davies was playing
Lund - Allen - Camps if not |
Talking of which, Rhys Bennett was at the game last night, as was Simon Ramsden. |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Camps or Allen? on 07:21 - Mar 22 with 2886 views | DaleFan7 |
I don't think there's any comparison between Allen and Camps imo.
Allen's work rate is 10x Camp's, his vision for a pass is better, for his size he's stronger and not afraid of a tackle. I personally think Camps is one of the most overrated players we've had in recent times at Dale. Too many times he goes completely anonymous in games, other than 1 shot he had last night that was the case too. How he got MoM was completely baffling. He pulls out of far too many tackles and could get blown over by the wind.
IMO our best central midfielders are Lund - Allen - Rathbone - Camps. In that order. | | | |
| Camps or Allen? on 07:46 - Mar 22 with 2835 views | aleanddale |
Allen for me..
Ball retention and terrier like..
Camps has an abundance of talent but I just think he can over complicate things and his decision making is not always spot on.
Camps is a crowd pleaser ( fancy stuff ) Allen is more workman like and does the dirty side of a role better.
Both very different - glad they both have Dale shirts on their backs. | | | |
| Camps or Allen? on 07:58 - Mar 22 with 2805 views | 442Dale |
| Camps or Allen? on 01:17 - Mar 22 by Daley_Lama |
We've gone away from the original subject, so I will finish as follows.
Lund: Automatic starter - every game for me above all in midfield.
Best position: Attacking midfielder
Where has he played most this season? Holding midfielder. Especially noticeable when Rathbone was playing
Dale have throughout this season with the very oddest of exceptions (tonight for example) played
4 defenders
1 defensive midfielder
2 not so defensive midfielders
3 others
It's not a new thing to see under Hilly, he played with the defensive midfielder last season, be it Bennett or Rose or whoever.
The "1 defensive midfielder" has for the most part been Lund for me. There are obvious exceptions when he wasn't in that role and equally, he is not just a defensive player at all, far from it. , When it wasn't Lund it was Rafferty. Especially when Davies/Rathbone were on the pitch and Rathbone was given a bit of licence to roam.
My three would be
Lund - Allen - Rathbone - but only if Davies was playing
Lund - Allen - Camps if not |
Lund has not been the holding/defensive midfielder for the most part, look at his goal v Sheff U and where he was for Camps' goal on Saturday. Those are just two examples from the two most recent home games, two amongst many over the season
Rathbone has indeed often played further forward, as has Henderson who illustrates the obvious: we like to play two with one ahead. One of the two sits/holds/is a defensive midfielder who can, on occasion swap with the other. It doesn't happen much because it creates issues in the structure of the side. To see how this works best, see Cavanagh (hopefully Keane next season should we address the defensive problem) or the Rose and Bennett examples mentioned. Both Allen and Camps, who have been the ones employed there more often than not, do sit and play the role quite well but their natural game doesn't allow them to eradicate problems in the way Cavanagh did - he was stopping attacks before they had chance to develop. This is why Rafferty was tried there, as he does deal with the defensive aspect better. However, he's also rash in his challenges and we see what happened at Barnsley and Peterborough.
Also, telling Lund he'll be the holding midfielder next season won't help our chances of getting him to sign another deal! [Post edited 22 Mar 2017 8:07]
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