| Luke Matheson 11:30 - Oct 26 with 14748 views | BartRowou |
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| Luke Matheson on 20:55 - Oct 28 with 4022 views | James1980 |
At his age can he sign a pre contract? |  |
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| Luke Matheson on 20:55 - Oct 28 with 4022 views | 56years |
| Luke Matheson on 20:41 - Oct 28 by 49thseason |
Because bringing through young players and selling them is what the whole club is predicated on. If Matheson does not have a pre contract or is going to leave without signing a professional contract with us, it means that B will have failed to deliver on the most vital part of the work he is paid to do. An inability to persuade players to sign professional contracts is not acceptable, it places the whole club in jeopardy. Adding a small charge to a ticket or attempting to organise a function is not why B gets paid, contracting players capable of securing the financial future of the club for years is. |
Were it all so simple! Have you heard of agents, 'tapping up', signing on payments, family inducements etc etc. The only thing we have to offer is loyalty to the club which gave you your chance and developed you to where you are now. Not sure how the Chief Exec fits into that conundrum.
Did Colin Garlick 'force' Craig Dawson to sign, rather it was his desire as an ex Sandy Laner to help 'his' club. Let us hope Luke's family feel the same! | | | |
| Luke Matheson on 08:11 - Oct 29 with 3773 views | judd |
| Luke Matheson on 20:55 - Oct 28 by 56years |
Were it all so simple! Have you heard of agents, 'tapping up', signing on payments, family inducements etc etc. The only thing we have to offer is loyalty to the club which gave you your chance and developed you to where you are now. Not sure how the Chief Exec fits into that conundrum.
Did Colin Garlick 'force' Craig Dawson to sign, rather it was his desire as an ex Sandy Laner to help 'his' club. Let us hope Luke's family feel the same! |
The word used was persuade, not force. |  |
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| Luke Matheson on 09:57 - Oct 29 with 3638 views | James1980 |
| Luke Matheson on 08:11 - Oct 29 by judd |
The word used was persuade, not force. |
I expect a Premier League club's cheque book could be extremely persuasive. | |
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| Luke Matheson on 10:47 - Oct 29 with 3577 views | springfieldparka |
No matter if the word is persuade , negotiate , or whatever this is not a level plying field as 56 years correctly says The chips are heavily stacked on the Matheson side of the table , and the club has no obvious levers to encourage a contract being signed What hand can anyone at the club play ; ; it would be madness to withdraw any contract offer , the player is not yet signed to a contract that he can be required to fulfil , it can't offer daft money . Th only cards available to play are the loyalty to the club that gave him his opportunities , and strong personal relationships within the club , or negotiation of a contract where the player demands a release clause in the event of a particular value being met . This , I suspect , my have been the case in the Adshead transfer , and look wht flak that brought down on the Board's head .
Rather than sniping from the sidelines , it would be nice to see some more constructive suggestions about what might constitute a robust negotiating strategy in scenarios like this where , as I see it , there are no easy answers . | | | |
| Luke Matheson on 11:18 - Oct 29 with 3539 views | judd |
| Luke Matheson on 10:47 - Oct 29 by springfieldparka |
No matter if the word is persuade , negotiate , or whatever this is not a level plying field as 56 years correctly says The chips are heavily stacked on the Matheson side of the table , and the club has no obvious levers to encourage a contract being signed What hand can anyone at the club play ; ; it would be madness to withdraw any contract offer , the player is not yet signed to a contract that he can be required to fulfil , it can't offer daft money . Th only cards available to play are the loyalty to the club that gave him his opportunities , and strong personal relationships within the club , or negotiation of a contract where the player demands a release clause in the event of a particular value being met . This , I suspect , my have been the case in the Adshead transfer , and look wht flak that brought down on the Board's head .
Rather than sniping from the sidelines , it would be nice to see some more constructive suggestions about what might constitute a robust negotiating strategy in scenarios like this where , as I see it , there are no easy answers . |
I think the word does matter, but would otherwise fully agree that it is a difficult process. That is why you would hope to have the correct experience and ability at the helm to protect our most valuable assets, particularly as a club that needs to develop and sell on its' youth. I also thought that there were rules in place to protect smaller clubs and their youth players from being "stolen" by the big boys.
With regards Adshead, just a few months before his sale, the then Manager was touting him about for £1m. I expect that is what he expected the club to receive as a transfer fee, no add ons included in this sum. I would also expect the Manager to be aware of any contractual terms that could dilute his valuation.
You would hope that whatever strategy we have in place, it is not one that only kicks in once the horse has bolted. | |
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| Luke Matheson on 11:46 - Oct 29 with 3493 views | James1980 |
| Luke Matheson on 11:18 - Oct 29 by judd |
I think the word does matter, but would otherwise fully agree that it is a difficult process. That is why you would hope to have the correct experience and ability at the helm to protect our most valuable assets, particularly as a club that needs to develop and sell on its' youth. I also thought that there were rules in place to protect smaller clubs and their youth players from being "stolen" by the big boys.
With regards Adshead, just a few months before his sale, the then Manager was touting him about for £1m. I expect that is what he expected the club to receive as a transfer fee, no add ons included in this sum. I would also expect the Manager to be aware of any contractual terms that could dilute his valuation.
You would hope that whatever strategy we have in place, it is not one that only kicks in once the horse has bolted. |
On the subject of Adshead were other clubs putting in bids for him? | |
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| Luke Matheson on 11:51 - Oct 29 with 3487 views | judd |
| Luke Matheson on 11:46 - Oct 29 by James1980 |
On the subject of Adshead were other clubs putting in bids for him? |
Dunno | |
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| Luke Matheson on 12:01 - Oct 29 with 3467 views | James1980 |
| Luke Matheson on 11:51 - Oct 29 by judd |
Dunno |
Maybe that would explain the initial figure we got. | |
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| Luke Matheson on 12:17 - Oct 29 with 3431 views | electricblue |
| Luke Matheson on 09:57 - Oct 29 by James1980 |
I expect a Premier League club's cheque book could be extremely persuasive. |
For who!
The players or the club. |  |
| My all time favourite Dale player Mr Lyndon Symmonds |
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| Luke Matheson on 12:20 - Oct 29 with 3421 views | judd |
| Luke Matheson on 12:01 - Oct 29 by James1980 |
Maybe that would explain the initial figure we got. |
There's a whole host of suppositions, I , erm, suppose, including the immediate need for cash flow. That's one of the problems of undisclosed fees in that people will make assumptions, educated guesses and take wild stabs in the dark.
I also understand why a club may decide not to disclose a fee. | |
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| Luke Matheson on 12:29 - Oct 29 with 3393 views | James1980 |
| Luke Matheson on 12:17 - Oct 29 by electricblue |
For who!
The players or the club. |
Either or both depending on the circumstances. | |
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| Luke Matheson on 17:06 - Oct 29 with 3190 views | springfieldparka |
Yes , very fair points about the previous manager's comments and inside knowledge of contractual terms . However , much as I admired KH , I wonder whether this was a over-hyping of a situation with the intention of whipping up a bidding war . Certainly managing expectations with the use of some kind of propaganda are classic negotiating tactics .
The problem though was that nothing I observed personally suggested that DA was even close to contributing regularly at open age level probably for the next 3 years and much can happen in 3 years . From the fact that the player has ended up in the development squad of what is ssentially a championship teams suggests that the big budget clubs had similar view
I think another point is that contractual terms may not just trigger a potential transfer , but might simply require a player to be notified if a bid comes in above a certain level ? In such a case , if a player's head is turned , it stacks the deck even more against the club and its negotiators . | | | |
| Luke Matheson on 17:19 - Oct 29 with 3147 views | D_Alien |
| Luke Matheson on 17:06 - Oct 29 by springfieldparka |
Yes , very fair points about the previous manager's comments and inside knowledge of contractual terms . However , much as I admired KH , I wonder whether this was a over-hyping of a situation with the intention of whipping up a bidding war . Certainly managing expectations with the use of some kind of propaganda are classic negotiating tactics .
The problem though was that nothing I observed personally suggested that DA was even close to contributing regularly at open age level probably for the next 3 years and much can happen in 3 years . From the fact that the player has ended up in the development squad of what is ssentially a championship teams suggests that the big budget clubs had similar view
I think another point is that contractual terms may not just trigger a potential transfer , but might simply require a player to be notified if a bid comes in above a certain level ? In such a case , if a player's head is turned , it stacks the deck even more against the club and its negotiators . |
That's a disgraceful slur on my abilities |  |
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| Luke Matheson on 17:21 - Oct 29 with 3147 views | tony_roch975 |
| Luke Matheson on 11:18 - Oct 29 by judd |
I think the word does matter, but would otherwise fully agree that it is a difficult process. That is why you would hope to have the correct experience and ability at the helm to protect our most valuable assets, particularly as a club that needs to develop and sell on its' youth. I also thought that there were rules in place to protect smaller clubs and their youth players from being "stolen" by the big boys.
With regards Adshead, just a few months before his sale, the then Manager was touting him about for £1m. I expect that is what he expected the club to receive as a transfer fee, no add ons included in this sum. I would also expect the Manager to be aware of any contractual terms that could dilute his valuation.
You would hope that whatever strategy we have in place, it is not one that only kicks in once the horse has bolted. |
"I also thought that there were rules in place to protect smaller clubs and their youth players from being "stolen" by the big boys." - surely such rules would be a restriction on the freedom of the market! | |
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| Luke Matheson on 18:43 - Oct 29 with 3056 views | judd |
| Luke Matheson on 17:21 - Oct 29 by tony_roch975 |
"I also thought that there were rules in place to protect smaller clubs and their youth players from being "stolen" by the big boys." - surely such rules would be a restriction on the freedom of the market! |
You may very well be right. I was just thinking of the sort of gubbins at the link:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49337051 | |
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| Luke Matheson on 19:56 - Oct 29 with 2910 views | judd |
| Luke Matheson on 17:06 - Oct 29 by springfieldparka |
Yes , very fair points about the previous manager's comments and inside knowledge of contractual terms . However , much as I admired KH , I wonder whether this was a over-hyping of a situation with the intention of whipping up a bidding war . Certainly managing expectations with the use of some kind of propaganda are classic negotiating tactics .
The problem though was that nothing I observed personally suggested that DA was even close to contributing regularly at open age level probably for the next 3 years and much can happen in 3 years . From the fact that the player has ended up in the development squad of what is ssentially a championship teams suggests that the big budget clubs had similar view
I think another point is that contractual terms may not just trigger a potential transfer , but might simply require a player to be notified if a bid comes in above a certain level ? In such a case , if a player's head is turned , it stacks the deck even more against the club and its negotiators . |
Just before the Manu game the current manager bemoaned the sale of Adshead in the press. He clearly.saw something in him.
It could be argued, therefore, that he was sold to the first club that enquired because we needed the cash. We will never know.
Going back to 49thSeasons point, risk assessment, judgement and anticipation are all essential ingredients in decision making, however uneven the field. Accountability is a must. | |
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| Luke Matheson on 21:02 - Oct 29 with 2816 views | James1980 |
| Luke Matheson on 19:56 - Oct 29 by judd |
Just before the Manu game the current manager bemoaned the sale of Adshead in the press. He clearly.saw something in him.
It could be argued, therefore, that he was sold to the first club that enquired because we needed the cash. We will never know.
Going back to 49thSeasons point, risk assessment, judgement and anticipation are all essential ingredients in decision making, however uneven the field. Accountability is a must. |
If we did sell to the first bidder that is poor show from Dan's agent in my opinion. Shouldn't they be ringing every club above us financially saying Norwich have offered this what are you deal are you willing to table. | |
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| Luke Matheson on 21:10 - Oct 29 with 2799 views | springfieldparka |
Agreed again , accountability is a must , but the counterpoint to that is that objectives in any performance plan have to be achievable and realistic given the circumstances that apply . Once goals are set and agreed , delivery of outcomes is a must , and that , for me , is where risk assessment , planning and tactics need to be in place to ensure success criteria are met .
I think some contributions on the message board seem to overlook the principles of achievability and realism in this context , whilst not recognising the significant disadvantages of a smaller club , run as we are , in the current system , and that was really my initial point .
Unfortunately it seems to have evolved into some esoteric debate in terms of management theory ; I apologise for my role in pushing down that path , and I'll withdraw from the debate now before I make it any worse ! | | | |
| Luke Matheson on 21:53 - Oct 29 with 2725 views | judd |
| Luke Matheson on 21:10 - Oct 29 by springfieldparka |
Agreed again , accountability is a must , but the counterpoint to that is that objectives in any performance plan have to be achievable and realistic given the circumstances that apply . Once goals are set and agreed , delivery of outcomes is a must , and that , for me , is where risk assessment , planning and tactics need to be in place to ensure success criteria are met .
I think some contributions on the message board seem to overlook the principles of achievability and realism in this context , whilst not recognising the significant disadvantages of a smaller club , run as we are , in the current system , and that was really my initial point .
Unfortunately it seems to have evolved into some esoteric debate in terms of management theory ; I apologise for my role in pushing down that path , and I'll withdraw from the debate now before I make it any worse ! |
Nothing wrong with your contribution to the debate. I think the club being run on a much more professional footing will be gleefully welcomed in some quarters and we look forward to benefitting from the results.
I would suggest that in an ever evolving place based on player performance then specific goals may go out the window in anticipating and mitigating for possible events.
None of us know how to value a player monetarily. The numbers regarding Luke are newspaper speculation. | |
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| Luke Matheson on 23:25 - Oct 29 with 2619 views | springfieldparka |
Thanks for that ! I've enjoyed the debate . Time to take a back seat nw though , methinks ! | | | |
| Luke Matheson on 05:56 - Oct 30 with 2511 views | fitzochris |
| Luke Matheson on 23:25 - Oct 29 by springfieldparka |
Thanks for that ! I've enjoyed the debate . Time to take a back seat nw though , methinks ! |
No need to take a backseat. This isn’t a dictatorship.
What I’ll add to this interesting debate is that the youth players, upon recruitment, are sold a very definite model that involves an apprenticeship in the youth ranks and, if good enough, promotion to the first team, a two-year stay in the senior set up, and then a move up the football pyramid if a move is available. The reason this works is that it’s an opportunity few other clubs higher up the chain offer. Young players and their parents have seen the model in action, so they know it isn’t a load of BS.
This was from Chris Dunphy s own mouth and the reason Callum Camps, Jamie Allen and others put pen to paper. It’s a mutually beneficial arrangement. For the player and for us.
That may well have been ripped up since Dunphy left us, but I sincerely hope not. |  |
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| Luke Matheson on 11:01 - Oct 30 with 2312 views | D_Alien |
| Luke Matheson on 05:56 - Oct 30 by fitzochris |
No need to take a backseat. This isn’t a dictatorship.
What I’ll add to this interesting debate is that the youth players, upon recruitment, are sold a very definite model that involves an apprenticeship in the youth ranks and, if good enough, promotion to the first team, a two-year stay in the senior set up, and then a move up the football pyramid if a move is available. The reason this works is that it’s an opportunity few other clubs higher up the chain offer. Young players and their parents have seen the model in action, so they know it isn’t a load of BS.
This was from Chris Dunphy s own mouth and the reason Callum Camps, Jamie Allen and others put pen to paper. It’s a mutually beneficial arrangement. For the player and for us.
That may well have been ripped up since Dunphy left us, but I sincerely hope not. |
If something is visibly successful, there'd be no reason to change it unless circumstances change, i.e. lack of funds to maintain the model. But due to its success, that can hardly be the case
But also, if i'm reading you right, there's an implication that the model needs to be fulfilled by both parties. It'd only take a very small number of highly promising young players not to fulfil their part of the bargain for it to start to break down
For the sake of all concerned, i sincerely hope Luke and his advisors aren't instrumental in that happening
[Post edited 30 Oct 2019 11:09]
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| Luke Matheson on 18:59 - Oct 31 with 1864 views | fitzochris |
| Luke Matheson on 14:17 - Oct 28 by fitzochris |
A three-year deal with a minmum release clause shouldn't be beyond our current admin to get sorted with Luke. [Post edited 31 Oct 2019 11:48]
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