| Bikes in London 18:46 - May 28 with 9398 views | Gloucs_R |
Been coming into London more recently with work. The bike situation seems to have gone mad. Never seen so many.
But..... When did the rules of the road stop applying to them? None wait at Red lights and the take away food bikes seen to be the worst.
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| Bikes in London on 10:28 - May 30 with 1205 views | slmrstid |
I've been cycling to work in Leicester across two different jobs for nearly eight years now. My old commute was brilliant, my old house backed onto the disused Great Central Railway path which I could follow all the way to the edge of the city, then join the shared path along the outer ring road to the commercial estate I worked on, the whole lot was cycle/shared paths and was brilliant.
My current one is a bit trickier and I've moved house since so its probably around 60:40 in favour of roads to cycle paths, but the roads I go on I make sure are quiet residential roads because I don't fancy being on busy roads with cars coming too close so I just take myself away from that situation.
Example here - I pass the King Power Stadium but go around the quiet roads that go around the old Filbert Street stadium rather than the main one that goes past the King Power - its shut on match days but when an open road its very busy, and cars are going more than twice my speed if not more.
There's about 50 yards of my journey where I'm a naughty cyclist and go on a pavement - this is just a roundabout by the river where officially the cycle path goes all the around the outside, but with the angle I approach that roundabout on to follow the official route I'd have to cross a busy road, then cross three further crossings to end up where I'm going anyway - pointless. But then for that fifty yards I slow right down, keep behind pedestrians if anyone is ahead, and come past very slowly when I do overtake. Just common sense right?
The rest of it is just common sense too - on a narrow road where a car is coming ahead and has right of way? Wait for it like you would in a car rather than squeeze through a narrow gap. If I'm already on the road and have right of way when a car is coming - in fairness most of the time the cars will wait as they should, and I will unashamedly give a gesture if they come through when they shouldn't.
The last bit I have is going under a railway bridge that is single lane - priority is to traffic going uphill. Again most of the times cars will wait, occasionally they don't. A couple of times I've had drivers try to abuse me for it despite the fact I have right of way and I will happily tell them to fk off and remind them if they hit and injure me they will go to prison if they are happy taking that risk.
The same goes the other way - if I need to wait going downhill at the end of the day then I will wait - I'm not trying to squeeze into a small gap just because I'm on a smaller mode of transport. I've seen other cyclists do it and I will shake my head at them because it is madness and putting yourself at risk.
And the delivery cyclists drive me just as mad! But that can also be blamed on the gig economy as much as anything else - people take stupid risks because to them time literally is money.
People will always do stupid things, on cars or bikes. People in cars need to accept they can cause a lot more damage, a lot more quickly, than someone on a bike will, and the way media (and it is media) dehumanise people on bikes is really dangerous and irresponsible.
The rest of it is just using some consideration for others, and being sensible.
When I'm driving I bloody hate coming past cyclists on the road! Mainly because I just don't want to kill anyone.
And lastly - for all the people who like to complain about the number of cycle lanes built across the country in recent years - that was policy from the government that won the 2019 election, with money given to councils up and down the country to build them (including Leicester, we've had a lot pop up these past few years) so if you voted Conservative then hate cycle lanes being built, you are complaining about something you voted for. |  | | |
| Bikes in London on 10:31 - May 30 with 1205 views | slmrstid |
There's already a bike register in the country Benny although it is voluntary rather than mandatory - my bike is registered on it and police have some good stats showing registered bikes that are registered are massively less likely to be stolen than those that aren't:-
https://www.bikeregister.com/
So my bike is registered under my name, to my address etc. Police, certainly in Leicester and I presume elsewhere around the country, offer pop up events where you can turn up and register your bike for free rather than pay the fee advertised on the website.
*EDIT* - Sorry, was a direct reply to post 50 from Benny but obviously clicked the wrong button to not quote it... [Post edited 30 May 10:31]
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| Bikes in London on 10:35 - May 30 with 1190 views | loftboy |
| Bikes in London on 10:15 - May 30 by Benny_the_Ball |
Funny how it is cyclists who see this as a backward step. Sorry, but if cyclists continue to flagrantly break the rules, some form of registration will come in (particularly for delivery riders and e-bikes). It will help combat this anti-social behaviour as well as help police reunite people with bikes that were stolen and have been recovered. As for road tax, it does add up. It needn't be much but at least contribute towards the cost of cycle lanes. Any cyclist who already pays road tax for a car would be exempt. |
On a tangent but relevant, when I lived in London I worked near star lane, I used to cycle from Plaistow up to Canning Town then down to star lane on to the industrial site where my depot was, one morning I came down the hill from the station, looked over my shoulder, signalled I was going to turn right, as I was turning a car over took me at speed and blared his horn, I still don’t know how I wasn’t wiped out, he stopped his car and started abusing me in what transpired to be Romanian.( his number plates gave it away)
When I got to work quite shaken up I told one of my Romanian colleagues what had happened, he started laughing and said “ in Romania all pedestrians and cyclists have to give way to cars no matter what”
So drivers are arriving here and driving to their own countries laws rather than learning ours! Very worrying as well as dangerous. |  |
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| Bikes in London on 10:41 - May 30 with 1145 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Bikes in London on 09:57 - May 30 by robith |
I actually posted my experience as a cyclist which has negative impressions of drivers - triggered by you celebrating a poster confessing to committing assault
Edited: posted in haste [Post edited 30 May 10:03]
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Your "trigger" was a pedestrian protecting his son from yet another rogue cyclist ignoring red lights. Nothing to do with drivers yet you respond by declaring them all "unhinged". You were right about one thing, though. It is much deeper than cyclists v. drivers, so why take it there? [Post edited 30 May 18:00]
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| Bikes in London on 10:57 - May 30 with 1084 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Bikes in London on 20:36 - May 29 by JimmyR |
If the police establish you did pass too close having reviewed the footage? Or do the rules or the road/Highway Code we’ve heard so much about not apply in such instances? Grasses! |
If police review footage and establish that a cyclist passed too close, cut across a junction, ran a red light, rode on the pavement, ran into pedestrians, slipstreamed motor vehicles, was checking their mobile phone whilst riding without holding the handlebars, stole a mobile phone or handbag from an unsuspecting pedestrian, etc., what do they do then? | | | |
| Bikes in London on 11:11 - May 30 with 1042 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Bikes in London on 10:35 - May 30 by loftboy |
On a tangent but relevant, when I lived in London I worked near star lane, I used to cycle from Plaistow up to Canning Town then down to star lane on to the industrial site where my depot was, one morning I came down the hill from the station, looked over my shoulder, signalled I was going to turn right, as I was turning a car over took me at speed and blared his horn, I still don’t know how I wasn’t wiped out, he stopped his car and started abusing me in what transpired to be Romanian.( his number plates gave it away)
When I got to work quite shaken up I told one of my Romanian colleagues what had happened, he started laughing and said “ in Romania all pedestrians and cyclists have to give way to cars no matter what”
So drivers are arriving here and driving to their own countries laws rather than learning ours! Very worrying as well as dangerous. |
Whilst I agree that more needs to be done to assimilate immigrants, in this instance I think they have right in Romania. The fact is in a collision with a motor vehicle, a cyclist or pedestrian is liable to come off worse. Therefore, it's in their interest to give way. The number of cyclists I've come across on a kamikaze mission astonishes me. Some just signal and/or manoeuvre without even looking. When I cycle I give way for reasons of self-preservation. Similarly when I drive my car, I don't take chances with lorries as I'm liable to come off worse. Simple common sense. | | | |
| Bikes in London on 11:15 - May 30 with 1049 views | dutch |
The vitriol on here is ridiculous. I am a cyclist, but also a driver occasionally and pedestrian, most of us are. But I know that as a cyclist I am part of the solution, not the problem. It can only be a good thing that there are more cyclists in London. So why have I been spat at by drivers, regularly abused, and once intentionally knocked off ?
Of course some cyclists are twits, but most drivers (maybe even me when in my car) seem to think the road is just for them. It isn't and increasingly we are all going to have to share with all manner of electric vehicles of every kind. So get over it and stop whingeing about people on two wheels. |  | | |
| Bikes in London on 11:21 - May 30 with 1028 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Bikes in London on 10:31 - May 30 by slmrstid |
There's already a bike register in the country Benny although it is voluntary rather than mandatory - my bike is registered on it and police have some good stats showing registered bikes that are registered are massively less likely to be stolen than those that aren't:-
https://www.bikeregister.com/
So my bike is registered under my name, to my address etc. Police, certainly in Leicester and I presume elsewhere around the country, offer pop up events where you can turn up and register your bike for free rather than pay the fee advertised on the website.
*EDIT* - Sorry, was a direct reply to post 50 from Benny but obviously clicked the wrong button to not quote it... [Post edited 30 May 10:31]
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All the more reason to make it compulsory. | | | |
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| Bikes in London on 11:52 - May 30 with 990 views | JimmyR |
| Bikes in London on 10:28 - May 30 by slmrstid |
I've been cycling to work in Leicester across two different jobs for nearly eight years now. My old commute was brilliant, my old house backed onto the disused Great Central Railway path which I could follow all the way to the edge of the city, then join the shared path along the outer ring road to the commercial estate I worked on, the whole lot was cycle/shared paths and was brilliant.
My current one is a bit trickier and I've moved house since so its probably around 60:40 in favour of roads to cycle paths, but the roads I go on I make sure are quiet residential roads because I don't fancy being on busy roads with cars coming too close so I just take myself away from that situation.
Example here - I pass the King Power Stadium but go around the quiet roads that go around the old Filbert Street stadium rather than the main one that goes past the King Power - its shut on match days but when an open road its very busy, and cars are going more than twice my speed if not more.
There's about 50 yards of my journey where I'm a naughty cyclist and go on a pavement - this is just a roundabout by the river where officially the cycle path goes all the around the outside, but with the angle I approach that roundabout on to follow the official route I'd have to cross a busy road, then cross three further crossings to end up where I'm going anyway - pointless. But then for that fifty yards I slow right down, keep behind pedestrians if anyone is ahead, and come past very slowly when I do overtake. Just common sense right?
The rest of it is just common sense too - on a narrow road where a car is coming ahead and has right of way? Wait for it like you would in a car rather than squeeze through a narrow gap. If I'm already on the road and have right of way when a car is coming - in fairness most of the time the cars will wait as they should, and I will unashamedly give a gesture if they come through when they shouldn't.
The last bit I have is going under a railway bridge that is single lane - priority is to traffic going uphill. Again most of the times cars will wait, occasionally they don't. A couple of times I've had drivers try to abuse me for it despite the fact I have right of way and I will happily tell them to fk off and remind them if they hit and injure me they will go to prison if they are happy taking that risk.
The same goes the other way - if I need to wait going downhill at the end of the day then I will wait - I'm not trying to squeeze into a small gap just because I'm on a smaller mode of transport. I've seen other cyclists do it and I will shake my head at them because it is madness and putting yourself at risk.
And the delivery cyclists drive me just as mad! But that can also be blamed on the gig economy as much as anything else - people take stupid risks because to them time literally is money.
People will always do stupid things, on cars or bikes. People in cars need to accept they can cause a lot more damage, a lot more quickly, than someone on a bike will, and the way media (and it is media) dehumanise people on bikes is really dangerous and irresponsible.
The rest of it is just using some consideration for others, and being sensible.
When I'm driving I bloody hate coming past cyclists on the road! Mainly because I just don't want to kill anyone.
And lastly - for all the people who like to complain about the number of cycle lanes built across the country in recent years - that was policy from the government that won the 2019 election, with money given to councils up and down the country to build them (including Leicester, we've had a lot pop up these past few years) so if you voted Conservative then hate cycle lanes being built, you are complaining about something you voted for. |
On your last point, I think that explains a lot of the vitriol on here
They voted for it and they added 2% on to our mortgages, pumped shite into rivers etc
All you can hear now is the horrifying & terrible sound of ppl not wanting to admit (to themselves or anyone else) that they are not only part of the problem but maybe the cause of it entirely. Thankfully, slowly and surely these attitudes are dying.
But not without reverence for the good old days when you could beat the shit out of your Mrs, drive home after 12 pints and face absolutely no consequences whatsoever | | | |
| Bikes in London on 12:07 - May 30 with 958 views | hubble |
| Bikes in London on 11:01 - May 29 by 1MoreBrightonR |
I cycle regularly in London and drive and can 1000% say that delivery drivers on bikes and ebikes need to really be cracked down on. They are a real problem and give other cyclists a terrible reputation.
BUT forcing every day cyclists to register is a massively backwards step. We need to encourage as many people out of cars as possible, both for people's health and the environment, plus for traffic reasons. The road tax doesnt really add up either...road tax is charged based on road maintenance and environmental impact, both of which cycling is easily one of the best options for. |
I see this classic fallacy regarding road tax is still being perpetuated:
Road tax is not "charged based (sic) on road maintenance and environmental impact."
Vehicle excise duty (road tax) is not ring-fenced for the upkeep of roads or road building, it just goes into the general tax fund. Local and general tax pays for the upkeep of roads. However the amount of road tax you pay is determined by several factors, including the level of CO2 emissions from your vehicle.
Regarding cyclists, no one seems to have mentioned cycling on the pavement, which happens all the time where I live in central NW London, often when there is a cycle lane right next to the pavement and it's downright dangerous, especially when it's at speed.
And on the subject of cycle lanes, the ones that were installed on Carlton Vale (for example) are barely used at all, yet their impact on traffic is huge, because they have made it impossible to pass buses stopped at bus stops and reduced two lanes to one lane on either side. |  |
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| Bikes in London on 12:29 - May 30 with 888 views | JimmyR |
| Bikes in London on 11:15 - May 30 by dutch |
The vitriol on here is ridiculous. I am a cyclist, but also a driver occasionally and pedestrian, most of us are. But I know that as a cyclist I am part of the solution, not the problem. It can only be a good thing that there are more cyclists in London. So why have I been spat at by drivers, regularly abused, and once intentionally knocked off ?
Of course some cyclists are twits, but most drivers (maybe even me when in my car) seem to think the road is just for them. It isn't and increasingly we are all going to have to share with all manner of electric vehicles of every kind. So get over it and stop whingeing about people on two wheels. |
No, don’t come on here with an even handed view point, they are c*nts, tw@ts, sub human self serving scum, out there getting some exercise and reducing the number of vehicles on the road.
Assault, abuse and try and kill the f*ckers for their choice of transportation (use WWF moves) then give it the biggen about it on a football forum - this is the way | | | |
| Bikes in London on 13:03 - May 30 with 803 views | loftboy |
| Bikes in London on 12:29 - May 30 by JimmyR |
No, don’t come on here with an even handed view point, they are c*nts, tw@ts, sub human self serving scum, out there getting some exercise and reducing the number of vehicles on the road.
Assault, abuse and try and kill the f*ckers for their choice of transportation (use WWF moves) then give it the biggen about it on a football forum - this is the way |
So I should have accepted a bloke riding at speed going through a red light a few days after my daughter was hospitalised, I’m also a cyclist BTW . The cúnt deserved everything he got, had it been a pensioner crossing at that time he could have killed them. | |
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| Bikes in London on 13:40 - May 30 with 743 views | NewBee |
A few years back, when the West London cycleway was being extended through Chiswick, the local car lobby started protesting about this, often quite vehemently.
One of their complaints was that the cycle way interefered with bus lanes.
Then someone went back through the archives to when the bus lanes themselves were first introduced, and found the EXACT SAME protestestors complaining about them, too!
This embarrassed them. For about four minutes. | | | |
| Bikes in London on 14:03 - May 30 with 718 views | hubble |
| Bikes in London on 12:29 - May 30 by JimmyR |
No, don’t come on here with an even handed view point, they are c*nts, tw@ts, sub human self serving scum, out there getting some exercise and reducing the number of vehicles on the road.
Assault, abuse and try and kill the f*ckers for their choice of transportation (use WWF moves) then give it the biggen about it on a football forum - this is the way |
Hyperbole-tastic post of the day! | |
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| Bikes in London on 14:16 - May 30 with 691 views | E17hoop |
| Bikes in London on 09:40 - May 30 by RangersDave |
I bet more people are hurt by bikes than by cows though?
Bikes need registering, insuring, and numbers on high vis tops too.
Maybe every bike should now have a transponder fitted, so within London, you know their speed, route, and ability to stop rather than go through lights?
My first time in London for years a month ago. My god, death race 2000 it was.
To stand out ofthe way and see these suicide jockeys dice with death was stunning.
Khan apparently said ULEZ was to prevent deaths due to pollution after a little girl died, but feck me, how many peeps are getting injured or killed by bikes a month within the 25?
Its a lawless society. |
There's little data for London and little recent data. However, the headlines are that cycles are a tiny minority of pedestrian injuries across the UK.
305 people were killed on the pavement in the 8 years between 2012 and 2020. Of those, 2 were by cyclists; car drivers were responsible for over 99.46% of pedestrian deaths on pavements.
Over the same period, 32 pedestrians died by vehicles jumping red lights. 1 was caused by a cyclist. 385 serious pedestrian casualties were a result of red light jumping - 17 (4%) were cyclists.
By comparison, 3 people a year die on average from cattle related injuries - cows ARE more dangerous than cyclists. |  |
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| Bikes in London on 14:59 - May 30 with 634 views | JimmyR |
| Bikes in London on 10:57 - May 30 by Benny_the_Ball |
If police review footage and establish that a cyclist passed too close, cut across a junction, ran a red light, rode on the pavement, ran into pedestrians, slipstreamed motor vehicles, was checking their mobile phone whilst riding without holding the handlebars, stole a mobile phone or handbag from an unsuspecting pedestrian, etc., what do they do then? |
establish that a cyclist passed too close
slipstreamed motor vehicles,
riding without holding the handlebars
None of these are actual offences as far as im aware however much you might want them to be or think they should. I’m sure you are a legal expert as well amongst other things….
But, really, if you have to resort to flat out making things up the adults are talking princess
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| Bikes in London on 15:07 - May 30 with 610 views | welwynranger |
| Bikes in London on 20:11 - May 28 by Gloucs_R |
Sorry to hear that.
I gave one guy a mouthful last week as he almost hit a young boy whilst we were crossing next Piccadilly. No remorse and told me to F off in broken English. |
On Kilburn High Road about 20yrs ago.
A car in front of me cut up a cyclist nearly knoking off his bike.
At the traffic light the cyclist jumped off his bike and taaped on the window of the car.
The driver refused to open the window.
So the cyclist ripped the wing mirror off and scraped it along the side of the car , got back on his bike and rode off.
I couldnt help but laugh | | | |
| Bikes in London on 15:12 - May 30 with 590 views | SheffieldHoop |
| Bikes in London on 10:35 - May 30 by loftboy |
On a tangent but relevant, when I lived in London I worked near star lane, I used to cycle from Plaistow up to Canning Town then down to star lane on to the industrial site where my depot was, one morning I came down the hill from the station, looked over my shoulder, signalled I was going to turn right, as I was turning a car over took me at speed and blared his horn, I still don’t know how I wasn’t wiped out, he stopped his car and started abusing me in what transpired to be Romanian.( his number plates gave it away)
When I got to work quite shaken up I told one of my Romanian colleagues what had happened, he started laughing and said “ in Romania all pedestrians and cyclists have to give way to cars no matter what”
So drivers are arriving here and driving to their own countries laws rather than learning ours! Very worrying as well as dangerous. |
I have a similar issue with a zebra crossing near me, you'll stand there and at least 3 or 4 cars will pass before anybody will stop. This is while I'm taking my 2-year-old to the childminder. I assume it must be due to foreign drivers not understanding what a Zebra crossing means in the UK, because if it's not that, then what the fck? |  |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| Bikes in London on 15:17 - May 30 with 584 views | Juzzie |
IIRC the rules/law is basically the bigger and more dangerous the vehicle you drive, the more you have to look out for everyone below you in the pecking order of vulnerability.
Whilst this makes sense, what it has done (and what i was alluding to earlier about survival instinct) is make people at the bottom of that chain totally oblivious to their role of responsibility i.e. they think they have none and behave how they please because it’s other people’s responsibility to look out for them.
Being in the moral right is one thing, being in an ambulance or or a morgue slab is something else.
Whether a pedestrian or HGV driver and everything in between, look out for yourself as well as others. It’s really not that hard. |  | | |
| Bikes in London on 15:26 - May 30 with 540 views | JimmyR |
| Bikes in London on 15:12 - May 30 by SheffieldHoop |
I have a similar issue with a zebra crossing near me, you'll stand there and at least 3 or 4 cars will pass before anybody will stop. This is while I'm taking my 2-year-old to the childminder. I assume it must be due to foreign drivers not understanding what a Zebra crossing means in the UK, because if it's not that, then what the fck? |
Stop look and listen should be plastered everywhere as may pedestrians walk straight out into the road
Unfortunately, I think it’s as you say that they don’t give a f*ck. they are painted white/black and have big flashing lights at them so it’s pretty obvious what they are for | | | |
| Bikes in London on 17:44 - May 30 with 432 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Bikes in London on 14:59 - May 30 by JimmyR |
establish that a cyclist passed too close
slipstreamed motor vehicles,
riding without holding the handlebars
None of these are actual offences as far as im aware however much you might want them to be or think they should. I’m sure you are a legal expert as well amongst other things….
But, really, if you have to resort to flat out making things up the adults are talking princess
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All daily occurrences (as confirmed by others on the thread). They may not be offences but neither is passing close to a cyclist, something which you immediately jumped on. As you yourself put it, "do the rules or the road/Highway Code we’ve heard so much about not apply in such instances?" It works both ways, sweet cheeks. | | | |
| Bikes in London on 17:53 - May 30 with 418 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Bikes in London on 13:40 - May 30 by NewBee |
A few years back, when the West London cycleway was being extended through Chiswick, the local car lobby started protesting about this, often quite vehemently.
One of their complaints was that the cycle way interefered with bus lanes.
Then someone went back through the archives to when the bus lanes themselves were first introduced, and found the EXACT SAME protestestors complaining about them, too!
This embarrassed them. For about four minutes. |
It's an utter joke in Turnham Green and has ruined Chiswick High Road. Despite having another road running parallel, they decided to take away one car lane on the main road for cyclists. This is causing chaos at the junction with Turham Green Terrace, where motorists wishing to continue straight ahead have to wait for anyone wishing to turn right. You can spend 30 minutes waiting at those lights alone. Whilst I'm all for cycle lanes, they should be properly designed in a manner which safeguards cyclists and pedestrians without penalising motorists or increasing congestion and pollution. | | | |
| Bikes in London on 18:00 - May 30 with 409 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Bikes in London on 15:26 - May 30 by JimmyR |
Stop look and listen should be plastered everywhere as may pedestrians walk straight out into the road
Unfortunately, I think it’s as you say that they don’t give a f*ck. they are painted white/black and have big flashing lights at them so it’s pretty obvious what they are for |
I can't remember the last time I heard the Green Cross Code. When did the emphasis shift away from folk taking care of themselves rather than expecting the rest of the world to make way? In the Netherlands, one city introduced an orange line to combat the issue of people walking into the road whilst staring at their mobile phone. The theory is that typically folk look down at their phones so as they wander into the road they'll notice the orange line and stop. Needless to say, it wasn't a roaring success. Can we not just go back to teaching people to pay attention (whether drivers, cyclists or pedestrians)? | | | |
| Bikes in London on 18:13 - May 30 with 391 views | Hayesender |
| Bikes in London on 15:12 - May 30 by SheffieldHoop |
I have a similar issue with a zebra crossing near me, you'll stand there and at least 3 or 4 cars will pass before anybody will stop. This is while I'm taking my 2-year-old to the childminder. I assume it must be due to foreign drivers not understanding what a Zebra crossing means in the UK, because if it's not that, then what the fck? |
You should try crossing at a zebra crossing in Italy. In fact, I have no idea why they even have them. Absolute nutters |  |
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| Bikes in London on 18:13 - May 30 with 388 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Bikes in London on 15:17 - May 30 by Juzzie |
IIRC the rules/law is basically the bigger and more dangerous the vehicle you drive, the more you have to look out for everyone below you in the pecking order of vulnerability.
Whilst this makes sense, what it has done (and what i was alluding to earlier about survival instinct) is make people at the bottom of that chain totally oblivious to their role of responsibility i.e. they think they have none and behave how they please because it’s other people’s responsibility to look out for them.
Being in the moral right is one thing, being in an ambulance or or a morgue slab is something else.
Whether a pedestrian or HGV driver and everything in between, look out for yourself as well as others. It’s really not that hard. |
Spot on. The switch of burden of responsibility in recent years makes little practical sense as those down the chain are now acting entitled and taking chances. It should revert back to the more vulnerable you are, the more care and attention you should pay. Moral arguments are of little use when you're 6 foot under. | | | |
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