| Thatcher dead 12:56 - Apr 8 with 92808 views | six_foot_two |
Skynews are are saying Magaret Thatcher has died of a stroke |  | | |  |
| Thatcher dead on 11:03 - Apr 12 with 1698 views | QPR1882 |
| Thatcher dead on 09:16 - Apr 12 by nadera78 |
That's oh so funny.
Tell me, was it only miners who were screwed over by Thatcher? No, of course it wasn't.
What about those in their twenties who were born to parents thrown on the scrapheap by Thatcher? Who grew up in communities that have still not recovered from her policies?
But that's okay, you borrowed a funny picture from someone else and posted it on a forum. Well done you. |
I was in my 20's when Thatcher was in power.
I decided to go to work instead of rebelling and becoming a punk, there was plenty of jobs if you could be bothered looking.
Guess some did and others did not, some made excuses others got on with life. |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 11:06 - Apr 12 with 1692 views | nadera78 |
Every single one? I don't know. But more or less. The studies on the coal reserves were pretty conclusive in the 80's. There was still lots of coal to be worked out, with some of them holding enough for many, many decades. |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 11:06 - Apr 12 with 1692 views | NW5Hoop |
| Thatcher dead on 09:26 - Apr 12 by BlackCrowe |
Apparently Thatch closed around 1400 mines whereas Harold Wilson closed just under 4,000. Why didn't the miners celebrate his death - genuine question? |
Those figures are wrong. We didn't have that many mines. Nowhere near.
But the basic point is right: mine closures were not greater in number in the 80s than in the 70s and 60s. The difference was that in the 80s they were closed in a much shorter span of time, and no provision was made for retraining or re-employing the people who were laid off in the 80s, whereas there had been in the 60s and 70s. So the miners who lost their jobs in the 60s and 70s were helped into finding a future. The miners who lost their jobs in the 80s were told: f*ck you. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 11:10 - Apr 12 with 1675 views | pomanjou |
Despite being a supporter of Thatch I think its a disgrace that such a massive amount should be spent on her funeral.
Having lived thru WWII and it would have been a travesty of the highest order if Skargill and his commie chums had won and for me it was just as important, if not more so, than The Falklands battle.
Skargills lasting legacy is thousands of men with emphesyma and other lung deseases which if he had had is way would now be infecting their kids as well. He was an evil man with ego and ambition much bigger (fortunately) than his brain.
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| Thatcher dead on 11:10 - Apr 12 with 1670 views | Hunterhoop |
Jesus H Christ. Nadera has answered this point at least 5 times.
In fact every time I log on and read just one page of this thread I seem to see someone asking this question and him answering it.
READ OTHER PEOPLE'S POSTS PROPERLY.
The point is the mines that Wilson shut were exhausted. Most miners moved to the remaining mines quite easily. And due to employment levels were easily able to get another job.
Whereas Thatcher, when she closed the mines, effectively closed the industry. There weren't other mines miners could go to. And because unemployment was higher there were fewer employment alternatives.
So Wilson didn't need to do anything because there was nothing to be done for miners when he shut mines.
When Thatcher shut mines, whilst she shut fewer, there was nowhere for miners to go. She knews this, didn't care and did nothing to help them find employment and provide for their families.
That is why there is more hate for Thatcher from miners and their relatives. It really isn't complicated nor needs the same question asked every 10 posts or so. |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 11:13 - Apr 12 with 1881 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Thatcher dead on 11:03 - Apr 12 by QPR1882 |
I was in my 20's when Thatcher was in power.
I decided to go to work instead of rebelling and becoming a punk, there was plenty of jobs if you could be bothered looking.
Guess some did and others did not, some made excuses others got on with life. |
As long as you're alive she'll never be dead. |  |
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| Thatcher dead on 11:16 - Apr 12 with 1874 views | TheBlob |
| Thatcher dead on 11:10 - Apr 12 by pomanjou |
Despite being a supporter of Thatch I think its a disgrace that such a massive amount should be spent on her funeral.
Having lived thru WWII and it would have been a travesty of the highest order if Skargill and his commie chums had won and for me it was just as important, if not more so, than The Falklands battle.
Skargills lasting legacy is thousands of men with emphesyma and other lung deseases which if he had had is way would now be infecting their kids as well. He was an evil man with ego and ambition much bigger (fortunately) than his brain.
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You beat me to it with the Emphysema and Pneumoconiosis (Black Lung)argument.
Is this the highest aspiration for your children indeed. |  |
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| Thatcher dead on 11:24 - Apr 12 with 1860 views | TacticalR |
| Thatcher dead on 11:10 - Apr 12 by Hunterhoop |
Jesus H Christ. Nadera has answered this point at least 5 times.
In fact every time I log on and read just one page of this thread I seem to see someone asking this question and him answering it.
READ OTHER PEOPLE'S POSTS PROPERLY.
The point is the mines that Wilson shut were exhausted. Most miners moved to the remaining mines quite easily. And due to employment levels were easily able to get another job.
Whereas Thatcher, when she closed the mines, effectively closed the industry. There weren't other mines miners could go to. And because unemployment was higher there were fewer employment alternatives.
So Wilson didn't need to do anything because there was nothing to be done for miners when he shut mines.
When Thatcher shut mines, whilst she shut fewer, there was nowhere for miners to go. She knews this, didn't care and did nothing to help them find employment and provide for their families.
That is why there is more hate for Thatcher from miners and their relatives. It really isn't complicated nor needs the same question asked every 10 posts or so. |
Most people have made thoughtful contributions to the thread (on both sides), and most have tried to offer some kind of analysis. It's shame a few such as Clive_Anderson have sought to reduce the level of the discussion with the most crude whitewashing of the past, the most blithe detachment from contemporary reality, the most servile defence of power, and all delivered in the tone of the most smug sermon of a country parson. |  |
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| Thatcher dead on 11:34 - Apr 12 with 1837 views | Juzzie |
Completey agree the biggest rise was late 90's when mortgages were handed out like confetti causing a surge in demand which accelerated prices (see my graph on the early pages of this thread) but the ball got rolling when the right-to-buy was fully kicked in during the 80's, again, this is mirriroed by the two spikes on the same graph. Even though right to buy did exist a lot earlier, it was virtually ignored. The average property price post-war remained virtually stable (inc allowing for inflation) for decades until the early 80's when owning your own home was made 'desirable'.
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| Thatcher dead on 11:46 - Apr 12 with 1814 views | Juzzie |
Germany don't have the same high housing prices we have because there's no demand to buy. Renting is normal, there's no "a Germans castle is his home" mentality out there. I think I explained this early on this thread too.
The rapid rise in housing prices in the UK were primarliy demand-driven. Other factors have now come into it but this thread is about then, not now. Too many people keep going on about Brown & Blair (who are both schisters for the record, but not relevant to a Maggie Thatcher thread talking about the 80's)
There's less demand in Germany = realistic prices. They think we're bonkers paying the prices that we do.
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| Thatcher dead on 12:13 - Apr 12 with 1775 views | Juzzie |
"sensible housing policy". Exactly. We had one until the stampede to keep up with the joneses and own your own home was kicked in by Thatcher and her government.
Glad you agree with me ;o)
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| Thatcher dead on 12:17 - Apr 12 with 1770 views | TheBlob |
If you'd had the indignities of renting in the early fifties onwards it was a joy to be a home owner.Hobnail booted Hitlers of Council Maintenance would lurch in unannounced puffing away at rollups and stinking of alcohol,then proceed to count the curtain hooks and poke around to see if we'd nicked anything.The walls and doors had to be painted whatever colour paint they had a dodgy excess of.And they sometimes tried to hit on my mum.She'd served in the navy,so told them loudly to f*ck off.We took that cesspit of a home,bought it and transformed it with hard labour,no holidays,with whatever money we could scrape together.Yeah we sold it after 50 years of living on that "rough council estate in London" as neighbour Jeremy Beadle described the place.
At least I've got decent surroundings for my disabled brother now out in the wilderness of West Wales.
I'll raise a glass to Thatch for that,and unlike a lot of people it won't be filled to the brim with someone else's bile. | |
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| Thatcher dead on 12:19 - Apr 12 with 1766 views | TacticalR |
How about your assertion earlier in this thread that Thatcher 'wasn't mates' with Chilean dictator, murderer, torturer, and drug dealer Augusto Pinochet when she defended him at every opportunity, and he paid annual visits to her house? | |
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| Thatcher dead on 12:19 - Apr 12 with 1765 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Thatcher dead on 12:17 - Apr 12 by TheBlob |
If you'd had the indignities of renting in the early fifties onwards it was a joy to be a home owner.Hobnail booted Hitlers of Council Maintenance would lurch in unannounced puffing away at rollups and stinking of alcohol,then proceed to count the curtain hooks and poke around to see if we'd nicked anything.The walls and doors had to be painted whatever colour paint they had a dodgy excess of.And they sometimes tried to hit on my mum.She'd served in the navy,so told them loudly to f*ck off.We took that cesspit of a home,bought it and transformed it with hard labour,no holidays,with whatever money we could scrape together.Yeah we sold it after 50 years of living on that "rough council estate in London" as neighbour Jeremy Beadle described the place.
At least I've got decent surroundings for my disabled brother now out in the wilderness of West Wales.
I'll raise a glass to Thatch for that,and unlike a lot of people it won't be filled to the brim with someone else's bile. |
Fair play, Blob, good post.
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| Thatcher dead on 12:21 - Apr 12 with 1758 views | Hunterhoop |
JESUS H CHRIST.
You must be a moron. Either that or deliberately obtuse.
I know what you asked. And I thought, clearly wrongly, that I was making it perfectly clear that your question was redundant. It's not the right question.
Harold Wilson did nothing because there was nothing to do. If miners were able to move to other mines or move easily into another sector, what is there to do for them??? Why would any state on earth provide support for those who don't need it??
Whereas when Thatcher closed a significant proportion of the remaining mines, these miners didn't have lots of other big mines to go to work for OR could easily get jobs in other sectors. THEREFORE THE IMPACT ON THEM AND THEIR LIVELIHOODS WAS FAR WORSE AND THATCHER DID NOTHING TO SUPPORT THEM AT A TIME WHEN STATE SUPPORT WAS NEEDED.
The "rate of job losses" is not relevant. It's not the issue. It's about the timing, whether the mines she shut still had coal to be mined and the impact on miners of them shutting. That's what makes Wilson shuttinng mines and Thatchers shutting mines incomparable.
You either struggle to understand this due to a lack of intelligence OR, more likely, you're being obtuse and don't want to accept it because it doesn't tie into your "Thatcher was always right" mantra. [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| Thatcher dead on 12:32 - Apr 12 with 1743 views | TacticalR |
| Thatcher dead on 12:21 - Apr 12 by Hunterhoop |
JESUS H CHRIST.
You must be a moron. Either that or deliberately obtuse.
I know what you asked. And I thought, clearly wrongly, that I was making it perfectly clear that your question was redundant. It's not the right question.
Harold Wilson did nothing because there was nothing to do. If miners were able to move to other mines or move easily into another sector, what is there to do for them??? Why would any state on earth provide support for those who don't need it??
Whereas when Thatcher closed a significant proportion of the remaining mines, these miners didn't have lots of other big mines to go to work for OR could easily get jobs in other sectors. THEREFORE THE IMPACT ON THEM AND THEIR LIVELIHOODS WAS FAR WORSE AND THATCHER DID NOTHING TO SUPPORT THEM AT A TIME WHEN STATE SUPPORT WAS NEEDED.
The "rate of job losses" is not relevant. It's not the issue. It's about the timing, whether the mines she shut still had coal to be mined and the impact on miners of them shutting. That's what makes Wilson shuttinng mines and Thatchers shutting mines incomparable.
You either struggle to understand this due to a lack of intelligence OR, more likely, you're being obtuse and don't want to accept it because it doesn't tie into your "Thatcher was always right" mantra. [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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On the "Thatcher was always right mantra", Clive_Anderson reminds me of Dr. Pangloss in Voltaire's Candide, whose constant mantra is "all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds". | |
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| Thatcher dead on 12:34 - Apr 12 with 1729 views | Juzzie |
Fair play Blob, no complaints from me! Don't worry though, I know they 'joys' of renting. We lived in a basement flat (now called 'garden flats') just off Portobello Road (no where near as trendy then as it is now, more the opposite) the late 60's through to the late 80's. Hiding from the rent man, plaster falling off the walls due to the damp, dodgy electricity cables and switches, only source of heating were paraffin heaters, hot water was from an already old gas boiler that usually took our eyebrows off when trying to re-light the damn pilot light that kept going out, our bath was in the kitchen, our cooker was an old GLC unit.
When we moved in (just before I was born) the garden was a rubble pit and my mum and dad spent months clearing out the lumps of concrete and rubbish and then putting crazy-paving down and two raised flower beds either side then having the landord tell us "you have a lovely garden, I think I'll have to put the rent up". My mum literally had to stop my dad from taking a swing at him!
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for own ownership etc etc just that instead of it being done in a controlled manner over a longer period of time and proper house building put in place it kicked in with a huge surge pushing prices up exponentionally. I literally remember the panic buying of property in the 80's as people were desperate to buy somewhere before the price went up the next month without everyone realising they were actually causing the very rise they were trying to avoid.
This then caused problems with trying to rent or buy. Me and my brother had to pay higher rents than before and it took me another 10 years (without holidays or other 'luxuries' that people now take for granted. I went to Greece twice, both times in October, those were my only holidays in a decade) before I was able to save up enough money for a deposit. When I was able to get somewhere, I was then told I was 'lucky' to have the deposit from people who went on one or two holidays a year to exotic locations then wondered why they had no savings. Taking a leaf out of my dad's book, I wanted to take a swing at them too!
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| Thatcher dead on 12:39 - Apr 12 with 1722 views | easthertsr |
And another thing not mentioned thus far on all 29 pages. Mrs. Thatcher was great friends with a certain Mr. J Savile, who regularly visited her, funny, not been comment on much this week | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 12:41 - Apr 12 with 1719 views | MrSheen |
Some numbers on UK coal mining...
http://www.ncm.org.uk/docs/collections-documents/statistics-in-mining.pdf?sfvrsn
Meanwhile, in Europe...
http://www.spiegel.de/international/end-of-an-industrial-era-germany-to-close-it
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3651881.stm
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2020555,00.html
As for German housing, low costs seem to be a function of easier supply as much as demand. And as with Japan, where people have shifted hugely from owners to renters over 25 years of falling prices, no-one wants to commit to taking on debt to pay for an asset that falls in price, even, as in Japan, if it means you pay less than renting. The mentality could easily change here in favour of renting, if we experienced a prolonged house price decline.
While I'm on...
"It's shame a few such as Clive_Anderson have sought to reduce the level of the discussion with the most crude whitewashing of the past, the most blithe detachment from contemporary reality, the most servile defence of power, and all delivered in the tone of the most smug sermon of a country parson."
Followed by...
"On the "Thatcher was always right mantra", Clive_Anderson reminds me of Dr. Pangloss in Voltaire's Candide, whose constant mantra is "all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds". "
More tea, vicar? |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 12:48 - Apr 12 with 1706 views | TacticalR |
Mr. Sheen, haven't forgotten your earlier question (about piano players). Trying to think of good way to reply (that will hopefully make sense). | |
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| Thatcher dead on 12:49 - Apr 12 with 1730 views | TheBlob |
| Thatcher dead on 12:34 - Apr 12 by Juzzie |
Fair play Blob, no complaints from me! Don't worry though, I know they 'joys' of renting. We lived in a basement flat (now called 'garden flats') just off Portobello Road (no where near as trendy then as it is now, more the opposite) the late 60's through to the late 80's. Hiding from the rent man, plaster falling off the walls due to the damp, dodgy electricity cables and switches, only source of heating were paraffin heaters, hot water was from an already old gas boiler that usually took our eyebrows off when trying to re-light the damn pilot light that kept going out, our bath was in the kitchen, our cooker was an old GLC unit.
When we moved in (just before I was born) the garden was a rubble pit and my mum and dad spent months clearing out the lumps of concrete and rubbish and then putting crazy-paving down and two raised flower beds either side then having the landord tell us "you have a lovely garden, I think I'll have to put the rent up". My mum literally had to stop my dad from taking a swing at him!
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for own ownership etc etc just that instead of it being done in a controlled manner over a longer period of time and proper house building put in place it kicked in with a huge surge pushing prices up exponentionally. I literally remember the panic buying of property in the 80's as people were desperate to buy somewhere before the price went up the next month without everyone realising they were actually causing the very rise they were trying to avoid.
This then caused problems with trying to rent or buy. Me and my brother had to pay higher rents than before and it took me another 10 years (without holidays or other 'luxuries' that people now take for granted. I went to Greece twice, both times in October, those were my only holidays in a decade) before I was able to save up enough money for a deposit. When I was able to get somewhere, I was then told I was 'lucky' to have the deposit from people who went on one or two holidays a year to exotic locations then wondered why they had no savings. Taking a leaf out of my dad's book, I wanted to take a swing at them too!
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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Well it's nice the Lurcher's got a roof over his head at last.
I've seen decrepit old housing stock transformed into proud homes for proud people.
People make slums.The Ferrier Estate was one such example.Bright,shiny and meticulously planned it was,then they moved the people in.(including my Gran. )Within no time it was full of burnt out cars,racists etc.
So they bulldozed it and in its place....
http://www.berkeleygroup.co.uk/property-developers/berkeley/developments/kidbroo | |
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| Thatcher dead on 13:06 - Apr 12 with 1704 views | TacticalR |
| Thatcher dead on 12:17 - Apr 12 by TheBlob |
If you'd had the indignities of renting in the early fifties onwards it was a joy to be a home owner.Hobnail booted Hitlers of Council Maintenance would lurch in unannounced puffing away at rollups and stinking of alcohol,then proceed to count the curtain hooks and poke around to see if we'd nicked anything.The walls and doors had to be painted whatever colour paint they had a dodgy excess of.And they sometimes tried to hit on my mum.She'd served in the navy,so told them loudly to f*ck off.We took that cesspit of a home,bought it and transformed it with hard labour,no holidays,with whatever money we could scrape together.Yeah we sold it after 50 years of living on that "rough council estate in London" as neighbour Jeremy Beadle described the place.
At least I've got decent surroundings for my disabled brother now out in the wilderness of West Wales.
I'll raise a glass to Thatch for that,and unlike a lot of people it won't be filled to the brim with someone else's bile. |
You've brought back some very bad memories there. I can remember having some awful (Council-owned) patterned wallpaper as a child, and we weren't allowed to paint over it. I think the philosophy was...if a thing is worth doing, it's worth the Council doing it. | |
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| Thatcher dead on 13:08 - Apr 12 with 1698 views | MrSheen |
| Thatcher dead on 12:48 - Apr 12 by TacticalR |
Mr. Sheen, haven't forgotten your earlier question (about piano players). Trying to think of good way to reply (that will hopefully make sense). |
It's OK, it wasn't a serious question. The point I was trying to make was that in a system where we are able to desert domestic options to drink foreign beer or listen to foreign music or take holidays overseas, it's impossible to expect lifetime loyalty from employers in domestic industries. (I understand that many mock the idea that this represents "freedom", so I haven't used the word.) I work in a service business where we get a lot of our business from abroad, so while I am sympathetic to pleas to shop local, I wouldn't want it imposed as an absolute | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 13:15 - Apr 12 with 1688 views | MrSheen |
| Thatcher dead on 13:06 - Apr 12 by TacticalR |
You've brought back some very bad memories there. I can remember having some awful (Council-owned) patterned wallpaper as a child, and we weren't allowed to paint over it. I think the philosophy was...if a thing is worth doing, it's worth the Council doing it. |
My father had a small building business in the 1970s and 80s, with much of his work being small repairs for Barnet and Brent Councils (keep vandalising those school fences kids, there are six of us at home). One source of steady work was to go into vacated council flats and houses and get them ready for the new tenants. Along with repairs to window-frames and showers, all the cocktail bars, shag-pile, Hawaiian murals, mirrored wardrobes, etc had to go, to be replaced by centrally issued light green emulsion and beige lino tiles | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 13:22 - Apr 12 with 2189 views | R_from_afar |
| Thatcher dead on 14:33 - Apr 11 by TheBlob |
"Maggie was also one of the first world leaders to warn about climate change."
Proof positive that it was a potential economic scam.
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Who knows whether she really believed it was an issue or if she just did it to boost her profile as a world leader.
On the topic of global warming and climate change, Big Oil is now accepting that the problems are man-made:
Conoco-Phillips CEO:
"The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has concluded that global warming is unequivocal."... "Last year we became the only U.S. integrated energy company to call for a mandatory national framework to address greenhouse gas emissions."
http://www.conocophillips.com/EN/newsroom/other_resources/pages/cdp_speech_text.
BP:"Accepts findings of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change"
http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/china/bpchina_english/STAGING/local_ass
SHELL:“CO2 emissions must be reduced to avoid serious climate change."
http://www.shell.com/home/content/environment_society/environment/climate_change
EXXON:“The Fourth Assessment Report (AR4) of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC 2007) provides an update of scientific understanding regarding GHG emissions, global warming and the risks of climate change, and the way changes could unfold in the future. Emissions scenarios and results from climate models (see Figure 1) estimate that, without policy intervention, temperatures could increase 1 to 5 º C by 2100.”
http://www.exxonmobil.com/Corporate/safety_climate_mgmt_report.aspx
CHEVRON:“we recognize and share the concerns of governments and the public about climate change.The use of fossil fuels to meet the world's energy needs is a contributor to an increase in greenhouse gases(GHGs)–mainly carbon dioxide (CO2) and methane–in the Earth's atmosphere."
http://www.chevron.com/globalissues/climatechange/
RFA |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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