| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread 11:18 - Jan 19 with 26247 views | Darran |
 |  |
| |  |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 16:23 - Jan 19 with 1917 views | waynekerr55 |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 16:15 - Jan 19 by Dibaba |
Your analogies would work better if they had a closer relation to facts. Preseason was not two weeks into the periodisation schedule. Each player was given directions on building base during the off season, which means that by the time they were doing those 6 X 1 km runs, they were probably at least 4 to 6 weeks into the periodisation cycle. I don't know why you keep harping on about this. Nearly all the top clubs are doing interval training now.
As for your comment that non-specific training makes people more prone to injuries, it doesn't have any basis in facts either. General conditioning prior to specific conditioning is the only proper way to build up one's conditioning.
If you are claiming that exhaustion is the cause of the injuries, you might be right. But usually it is the exertions during the past month or so that have a greater effect on injuries than those that occurred several months before. As for Shelvey, he was a squad player for most of the last season, so naturally, he would be more susceptible to injury than the other players, especially the kind of exhaustion-related ones that you are describing.
A far bigger risk of injury is present when players are making drastic changes to their training either in intensity, workload, or the muscle groups stressed. The workload factor of course has been fairly demanding due to the Europa League commitments.
But obviously, if you are the conditioning coach trying to prepare a team for an incredibly high workload, then you have to make sure that the players are training fairly hard in the offseason and preseason, otherwise the when the heavy workload is introduced, the players will be more susceptible to injury due to the fact that it will be more of a shock to the system. As long as the workload and intensity are increased gradually enough, one can avoid a great risk of injuries.
Of course, in game situations and practice there are always dozens of other factors such as pitch conditions, weather, physicality and style of play of the opponents, that can present risks for injury.
So all in all Wayne, I don't subscribe to your charge that doing some 1000 meter intervals has caused injuries.
As for your reference to Mo Farah's training, I can tell you that he is probably doing at least double or triple that distance at far greater intensity after he builds up some base. Of course the base building period is far longer for a runner than for a footballer; but the same general rules apply. But even when runners do nearly everything right, there is a fairly high percentage that miss out on important competitions due to injury, even in a non-contact sport; and even when they are not exposed to all the other factors that might make a footballer injured.
I don't think there is a problem with the conditioning program so much as there might be a problem with the lack of bodies at the moment. [Post edited 19 Jan 2014 16:18]
|
So this "general" fitness you talk about - exactly how much of this has been lost through reversibility?
And when do you run in a straight line to fatigue for 1km in a game? The muscle is being overloaded in one direction and under loaded in multiple directions - thus not mimicking the demands of the sport. Specificity - the first principle of training.
Of course I know all clubs are doing interval training, but wouldn't realistic interval training be better?
And just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean it's right - but of course football knows best!
If you don't think that training doesn't add to the fatigue of players and thus increasing our % of grade 0/1 muscle injuries then we'll agree to disagree. I quote Shelvey and Ben Davies "that was the hardest session ever" - 2 weeks into pre season and 4/6 weeks into a 11/12 month macro cycle. Of course they need to work hard but why are they being flogged this early. That in itself is a "shock to the system"!
PS - the Mo Farah point is to illustrate that he wouldn't flog himself to death 4 weeks into the programme, he may do more but that's the result of a combination of his genetics and his training/demands of his sport.
And I agree to a point, you can't do anything about impact injuries, but the majority of ours have not been. More questions than answers IMO [Post edited 19 Jan 2014 16:33]
|  |
| |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 16:28 - Jan 19 with 1888 views | AnotherJohn |
Just back from the game. I was hoping for a point but fearing the worse, and was pleased with the first 30 minutes or so. The problem is that that - as has been the case for months - the final killer ball was missing, and when our long range shots didn't go in, the pendulum swung the other way. The squad is looking thin, and when Shelvey went off that disrupted the balance of the side. As things stand, I do not think we can put out a team that would survive in the BPL. When more of our injured return we may be able to do that, but all will depend on how long it takes absentees to bed back in. At the moment I'd say the odds of staying up are about 60/40 in our favour. If we do not strengthen in the window I'd say it goes down to 50/50. Buying the odd player for 1.5 m won't cut it I'm afraid. It looked like Shelvey's hamstring problem recurred and that Routledge may also have a problem. |  | | |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 16:29 - Jan 19 with 1876 views | Phaedrus |
I hope Laudrup puts the kids out next week but he likes the cups so who knows. |  |
| And what is good Phaedrus, and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? |
| |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 16:33 - Jan 19 with 1852 views | LeonisGod |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 15:34 - Jan 19 by DwightYorkeSuperstar |
I lost count how many times they got beyond our entire 10 outfield players and were quite literally lining up to score. That is being outplayed. Just because we passed the ball around our back 4 for large periods of time which tipped the possession stats in our favour does not mean this was an even game. Far from it. They absolutley tore us apart. |
^this. How anyone can say we were not outplayed is beyond me. They weren't far the better side. Stepped it up when they needed to and contained us for large parts of the match. But they're a good side. No one should have expected a result today, especially considering we've artlessly 6 first teamers out. Next few matches against those teams around us will be key. |  | | |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 16:55 - Jan 19 with 1739 views | Dibaba |
I don't know why you would think these players were fatigued after each one of those 1 km intervals. It is not probable, if they were given instructions to build up a proper base during the off season. The only one I found that seemed to mention the difficulty of the interval training was Britton (and when he mentioned that he also mentioned that the lads showed up for the preseason fit because they had done the training that was asked of them during the offseason). If Britton found the runs difficult, we have to remember that he had a hernia operation, so he probably didn't have the same amount of base building in the offseason probably most of the other lads. (This would serve to explain why he saw so little game time in the early part of the season, because even considering the acquisition of Canas, he saw too little game time.)
Having much experience doing intervals myself, when you are doing these longer intervals, generally the first interval session is only done at about 80 to 85 percent of maximum oxygen uptake capacity (VO2 Max). That is should not be enough to make an elite level footballer exhausted. Usually, if the interval session is done correctly, there should be minimal degradation in performance between each repetition. There should also be rather low increase in exertion between the first one and the last one. If either of these are the case, then it is a signal that the athlete is overtraining as he is not ready for such exertions. I cannot imagine that the conditioning coach would make them do that if he hadn't assessed their resting pulse, recovery rate, etc. prior to the session.
I would guess that each of these Swansea players probably peaked out at about 40 to 50 miles per week during the offseason.
As for your comments about overloading and the imbalance: maybe it would be valid if that was the only type of training they did. But it clearly wasn't. The players were doing plenty of football specific training as well as resistance training. But one always needs to maintain the general conditioning even while they introduce the specific training. Yes, if only running is done, of course imbalances may result, but as long as that is balanced with the other type of training mentioned, then no such imbalances should occur. Of course, I don't know the amount and quality of the other types of training; but if many injuries are occuring now, it is probably due to the fact that the offseason and preseason conditioning program LACKED enough intensity or volume, not that it was too great. It is not the load itself that causes injuries, but the fact that the player has not properly adjusted to the load, either in training or in games. It is not easy to prepare the body to play at high intensity for 90 minutes for games in July and August if one has not done intervals. I am willing to bet that every one of Swansea's Europa opponents did similar preparation during the off season and during the preseason in that regard.
Besides the point of the general conditioning and running in particular is to build up the heart and diaphragm, and to boost enzyme and ATP production, to build more hemoglobin, and make the processing of glycogen and fat metabolism more efficient. All of these elements are as important as what happens at the muscular level.
The point of the interval training is to increase the lactate threshold, which can only be built up through intense and sustained exertions at least 3 minutes in duration. There are not many ways of doing that in a football-specific way that would tax the heart, diaphragm and cell structures to the degree described above, because often in football, one needs to hold their position rather than to run continually.
Of course, there are ways to avoid the impact of running, but presumably all these runs were done on grass or other soft surfaces.
Not too long ago, one of the Swansea players interviewed mentioned that the best runner on the team is Hernandez. So, Hernandez came through the training the easiest and had no problems, I imagine. Yet, he is the most susceptible to injury. So, I think other factors are responsible, not the running. [Post edited 19 Jan 2014 17:05]
| | | |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 16:55 - Jan 19 with 1735 views | Swanfan1 |
This is the Laudrup way, no focus on the defense at all, everyone runs up and attacks, Davies at times gets in offside.
So if you use all that energy to attack, you bound to lose when they counter attack. |  |
| |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 16:59 - Jan 19 with 1717 views | Dull1Thomas |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 16:55 - Jan 19 by Swanfan1 |
This is the Laudrup way, no focus on the defense at all, everyone runs up and attacks, Davies at times gets in offside.
So if you use all that energy to attack, you bound to lose when they counter attack. |
rewind to last season - no one attacks, everything is backwards - poor man can't do anything.
I know let's sack him and get Kenny Jackett back. | |
| |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 17:00 - Jan 19 with 1713 views | controversial_jack |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 15:08 - Jan 19 by Drizzy |
Bony and Davies have been outstanding today. |
Not one of Ben's better games imo | | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 17:04 - Jan 19 with 1691 views | waynekerr55 |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 16:55 - Jan 19 by Dibaba |
I don't know why you would think these players were fatigued after each one of those 1 km intervals. It is not probable, if they were given instructions to build up a proper base during the off season. The only one I found that seemed to mention the difficulty of the interval training was Britton (and when he mentioned that he also mentioned that the lads showed up for the preseason fit because they had done the training that was asked of them during the offseason). If Britton found the runs difficult, we have to remember that he had a hernia operation, so he probably didn't have the same amount of base building in the offseason probably most of the other lads. (This would serve to explain why he saw so little game time in the early part of the season, because even considering the acquisition of Canas, he saw too little game time.)
Having much experience doing intervals myself, when you are doing these longer intervals, generally the first interval session is only done at about 80 to 85 percent of maximum oxygen uptake capacity (VO2 Max). That is should not be enough to make an elite level footballer exhausted. Usually, if the interval session is done correctly, there should be minimal degradation in performance between each repetition. There should also be rather low increase in exertion between the first one and the last one. If either of these are the case, then it is a signal that the athlete is overtraining as he is not ready for such exertions. I cannot imagine that the conditioning coach would make them do that if he hadn't assessed their resting pulse, recovery rate, etc. prior to the session.
I would guess that each of these Swansea players probably peaked out at about 40 to 50 miles per week during the offseason.
As for your comments about overloading and the imbalance: maybe it would be valid if that was the only type of training they did. But it clearly wasn't. The players were doing plenty of football specific training as well as resistance training. But one always needs to maintain the general conditioning even while they introduce the specific training. Yes, if only running is done, of course imbalances may result, but as long as that is balanced with the other type of training mentioned, then no such imbalances should occur. Of course, I don't know the amount and quality of the other types of training; but if many injuries are occuring now, it is probably due to the fact that the offseason and preseason conditioning program LACKED enough intensity or volume, not that it was too great. It is not the load itself that causes injuries, but the fact that the player has not properly adjusted to the load, either in training or in games. It is not easy to prepare the body to play at high intensity for 90 minutes for games in July and August if one has not done intervals. I am willing to bet that every one of Swansea's Europa opponents did similar preparation during the off season and during the preseason in that regard.
Besides the point of the general conditioning and running in particular is to build up the heart and diaphragm, and to boost enzyme and ATP production, to build more hemoglobin, and make the processing of glycogen and fat metabolism more efficient. All of these elements are as important as what happens at the muscular level.
The point of the interval training is to increase the lactate threshold, which can only be built up through intense and sustained exertions at least 3 minutes in duration. There are not many ways of doing that in a football-specific way that would tax the heart, diaphragm and cell structures to the degree described above, because often in football, one needs to hold their position rather than to run continually.
Of course, there are ways to avoid the impact of running, but presumably all these runs were done on grass or other soft surfaces.
Not too long ago, one of the Swansea players interviewed mentioned that the best runner on the team is Hernandez. So, Hernandez came through the training the easiest and had no problems, I imagine. Yet, he is the most susceptible to injury. So, I think other factors are responsible, not the running. [Post edited 19 Jan 2014 17:05]
|
Well if you can be bothered to go through their TL's it's there. I also saw a lot of p*ss take tweets last year by Dyer/Routledge etc about training in pre season last year.
Specific training will also raise the strength of the diapraghm and increase enzyme activity. I haven't got it to hand but I'm sure there's a some research shows that specific exercise (e.g. SSG's) result in a far higher level of effort and intensity from players than the general stuff. So again I don't see any justification for using straight line unspecific work from a science perspective, unless that science perspective is being used to baffle management to keep people in a job (I'm a massive cynic as I've worked in the game  )
Of course there are other factors that could contribute (e.g. poor nutrition/hydration/surfaces/footwear) but the number of non impact injuries does need looking at | |
| |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 17:12 - Jan 19 with 1658 views | oldcob |
not enough warriors. Too many tippy tappy players. | | | |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 17:14 - Jan 19 with 1651 views | ymaohyd |
In my opinion ML has taken us backwards. He isn't as good a manager as Rodgers or Martinez. We are in grave danger of going down. The strange thing, is that although we have had a pretty woeful record for coming on for a year now it's hard to pinpoint where it's gone wrong.
The injury situation has been difficult, however our recruitment during last summer and our inactivity so far this window hasn't raised the standards.
We badly need Michu to come back firing on all cylinders, for me he is the only offensive player we have with the X factor for the Premier league. |  |
| |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 17:15 - Jan 19 with 1646 views | waynekerr55 |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 17:14 - Jan 19 by ymaohyd |
In my opinion ML has taken us backwards. He isn't as good a manager as Rodgers or Martinez. We are in grave danger of going down. The strange thing, is that although we have had a pretty woeful record for coming on for a year now it's hard to pinpoint where it's gone wrong.
The injury situation has been difficult, however our recruitment during last summer and our inactivity so far this window hasn't raised the standards.
We badly need Michu to come back firing on all cylinders, for me he is the only offensive player we have with the X factor for the Premier league. |
And Wilfired too? | |
| |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 17:17 - Jan 19 with 1638 views | NOTRAC |
We hit the bar,should have had a penalty and go one down to their first attempt
on goal.We have to change our midfield just after halftime due to injury.Go two down to a bad own goal, and three down when we are chasing the game.Bony who was having a superb game scores what turns out to be a consolation goal.
We lacked leadership at times, but very little help from crowd either.
Overall game proved we need a lift with either a good signing or loan player.
Squad now down below the bear bones. | |
| |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 17:22 - Jan 19 with 1611 views | Andy1300 |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 15:37 - Jan 19 by Dull1Thomas |
Twice until the last few minutes when we were going on an all out attack.
But let's all say we're rubbish, let's all get on the players backs, let's all see the negative and ignore the positive.
At the moment it isn't ML, HJ or the players that are relegation material it's our pathetic fan base. |
Are you serious?
Ffs |  |
| |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 17:25 - Jan 19 with 1605 views | ymaohyd |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 17:17 - Jan 19 by NOTRAC |
We hit the bar,should have had a penalty and go one down to their first attempt
on goal.We have to change our midfield just after halftime due to injury.Go two down to a bad own goal, and three down when we are chasing the game.Bony who was having a superb game scores what turns out to be a consolation goal.
We lacked leadership at times, but very little help from crowd either.
Overall game proved we need a lift with either a good signing or loan player.
Squad now down below the bear bones. |
Relegated sides will have supporters who refuse to see what's in front of them. For coming on for a year now we have had an awful record in the league. We need to realise that, react to it and work hard. Practically every home game we fail to control and go a goal down. Every game though it's down to being unlucky! | |
| |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 17:38 - Jan 19 with 1562 views | Dibaba |
Well Dyer and Routledge I can imagine would have had the most difficulty with the 1000 meter intervals, because Dyer's background is a sprinter, so most of his muscles are composed of fibres optimised for anaerobic work.
That is precisely why he needs these types of intervals: in order to build more of the aerobic type. You can't argue that Dyer was more effective this season prior to injury than most of last season, and he seems to have greater stamina (though now after sustaining a bad injury, most of those gains would have been lost).
You show me a team where the players don't do any cross-training but only plays football, and I'll show you a team that doesn't play in any of the top divisions.
You simply cannot blame challenging workouts alone in preseason for injuries. Now if the player didn't work hard enough in the offseaon leaving him unprepared to handle those preseason workouts, then of course those workouts would probably not be good for him and may contribute to injury. In such a scenario, we are talking about a different cause altogether.
I'm sure that Pochettino's two-a-day workouts were much more challenging that those of probably any other Premier League team, because he had to prepare his team to play a very physically demanding pressing style. But I don't think those workouts would have been demanded of his players unless those players were prepared during the offseason to handle them. And judging from Southampton's early season form, those workouts paid huge dividends.
This general versus specific debate doesn't make any sense. Both are needed, and in the earlier part of the cycle, the training is more heavily oriented toward the more general, and the specificity of the training increases only after the general conditioning has reached a minimal level -- if one wants to avoid risk of injury.
If injury occurs during the general training phase, then it is most often due to the fact that either the volume or intensity was increased too quickly and not due to the type of training per se.
As for your notion that football-specific training is better than interval training in preseason; I don't think that is provable. I would imagine that it would require at least double or triple the amount of time to achieve the same gains from playing football as it would to do a set of 1 km X 6 intervals.
And during a game of football, the ones that are exerting themselves the most are usually those either having the ball or defending the ones with the ball at any given moment, so there is no assurance that they are giving the right amount of exertion.
When you have a timed interval with a heart-rate monitor, it is far easier to make sure that the right amount of exertion -- not too little and not too much -- is being applied. It reduces the number of factors that would make one either undertrain or overtrain. Of course, there are times when such game-situation maximum-effort intervals are needed, but I don't think it is good to introduce these early in the preseason.
Have you ever tried to keep your heart-rate steady during a game of football? Either the quality of your football will suffer or you will be unable to keep the heart rate steady. The optimal range of training is far easier to achieve when the exercise is continuous and repetitive. | | | |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 17:47 - Jan 19 with 1531 views | DanishDuck |
Where is the leader in this game, after Michu went out, they cant play football anymore.
This team needs a leader and that Chico should take on his shoulders, but he didnt and he played poor. |  | | |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 17:49 - Jan 19 with 1523 views | waynekerr55 |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 17:38 - Jan 19 by Dibaba |
Well Dyer and Routledge I can imagine would have had the most difficulty with the 1000 meter intervals, because Dyer's background is a sprinter, so most of his muscles are composed of fibres optimised for anaerobic work.
That is precisely why he needs these types of intervals: in order to build more of the aerobic type. You can't argue that Dyer was more effective this season prior to injury than most of last season, and he seems to have greater stamina (though now after sustaining a bad injury, most of those gains would have been lost).
You show me a team where the players don't do any cross-training but only plays football, and I'll show you a team that doesn't play in any of the top divisions.
You simply cannot blame challenging workouts alone in preseason for injuries. Now if the player didn't work hard enough in the offseaon leaving him unprepared to handle those preseason workouts, then of course those workouts would probably not be good for him and may contribute to injury. In such a scenario, we are talking about a different cause altogether.
I'm sure that Pochettino's two-a-day workouts were much more challenging that those of probably any other Premier League team, because he had to prepare his team to play a very physically demanding pressing style. But I don't think those workouts would have been demanded of his players unless those players were prepared during the offseason to handle them. And judging from Southampton's early season form, those workouts paid huge dividends.
This general versus specific debate doesn't make any sense. Both are needed, and in the earlier part of the cycle, the training is more heavily oriented toward the more general, and the specificity of the training increases only after the general conditioning has reached a minimal level -- if one wants to avoid risk of injury.
If injury occurs during the general training phase, then it is most often due to the fact that either the volume or intensity was increased too quickly and not due to the type of training per se.
As for your notion that football-specific training is better than interval training in preseason; I don't think that is provable. I would imagine that it would require at least double or triple the amount of time to achieve the same gains from playing football as it would to do a set of 1 km X 6 intervals.
And during a game of football, the ones that are exerting themselves the most are usually those either having the ball or defending the ones with the ball at any given moment, so there is no assurance that they are giving the right amount of exertion.
When you have a timed interval with a heart-rate monitor, it is far easier to make sure that the right amount of exertion -- not too little and not too much -- is being applied. It reduces the number of factors that would make one either undertrain or overtrain. Of course, there are times when such game-situation maximum-effort intervals are needed, but I don't think it is good to introduce these early in the preseason.
Have you ever tried to keep your heart-rate steady during a game of football? Either the quality of your football will suffer or you will be unable to keep the heart rate steady. The optimal range of training is far easier to achieve when the exercise is continuous and repetitive. |
Why would you need to keep the heart rate constant - the game doesn't demand that. A mixture of cross training across the 3 energy systems/fibre types is needed as that is what the game is. Have you ever thought why the players say "I'm not fit until 5 games in" is that because the muscles haven't gone through multi direction movement?
With regards no teams in the top division - Mourinho/Guardiola/Hiidink - they use specific training. Correct me if I'm wrong doesn't Roberto subscribe to this approach also, as did Brendan (although they seem to be picking up injuries also but his record was impeccable in the promotion year)
http://youmerugby.com/post/25024816993/the-pianist-doesnt-run-around-the-piano-o
Looking at Southampton, what's happened to them now? Their form isn't great and they are picking up injuries. A marathon, not a sprint is the approach in most of the european clubs I've seen but as we are British and we had the empire we do things our way as we know best! [Post edited 19 Jan 2014 18:16]
| |
| |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 18:22 - Jan 19 with 1422 views | Dibaba |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 17:49 - Jan 19 by waynekerr55 |
Why would you need to keep the heart rate constant - the game doesn't demand that. A mixture of cross training across the 3 energy systems/fibre types is needed as that is what the game is. Have you ever thought why the players say "I'm not fit until 5 games in" is that because the muscles haven't gone through multi direction movement?
With regards no teams in the top division - Mourinho/Guardiola/Hiidink - they use specific training. Correct me if I'm wrong doesn't Roberto subscribe to this approach also, as did Brendan (although they seem to be picking up injuries also but his record was impeccable in the promotion year)
http://youmerugby.com/post/25024816993/the-pianist-doesnt-run-around-the-piano-o
Looking at Southampton, what's happened to them now? Their form isn't great and they are picking up injuries. A marathon, not a sprint is the approach in most of the european clubs I've seen but as we are British and we had the empire we do things our way as we know best! [Post edited 19 Jan 2014 18:16]
|
Wayne, I don't have a problem having this debate; but we need some ground rules.
First of all it isn't fair to characterize me as the proponent of general conditioning over specific conditioning, as I clearly said both are needed. But when one is not playing football in the offseason, or if one is, they are not playing at anywhere near maximal level -- then introducing too much football specific training at too high of an intensity (and often there is a risk that players keen to make an impression in preseason will not be able to reign in their level of exertion) to early in preseason would probably present far greater risk of injury than introducing the specific training after one has adequately built up the basic muscle groups and anatomical structures needed for any type of strenuous effort, football-related or otherwise. Specific training is absolutely essential but timing is key. If introduced too soon without general conditioning adequately attained, it can greatly increase risk of injury.
As I mentioned earlier, it is a very difficult task both for a conditioning coach and for the players to adequately build a base with enough volume, intensity, and specificity during the rather short offseason and preseason to the degree that the team is ready to play make or break Europa League qualifiers and continue for 8 or 9 months.
Presuming, for the sake of argument, all the training were roughly equal to last season, did you really expect to see as few injuries this season as last season?
You asked me why it is important to keep the heart rate constant when building one's cardiovascular fitness. If you need to know, there is plenty of literature on why. And there are plenty of teams that are wearing heart rate monitors in order to measure recovery rate, exertion, etc. in order to keep the training at the optimal intensity.
You seem to know about the SAID (Specific Adaptations to Imposed Demands) Principle. But you don't seem to be aware that the rate of adaptation is optimised when changes in volume, intensity, and specificity are likewise optimised. Too little or too much change in any of those factors can slow down the rate of adaptation.
And the general rule is that increases in volume must be increased before intensity, and specificity must be increased last, or at least a while after volume has reached near-peak levels.
Now of course there some sports physiologists that think there are shortcuts. They think you can achieve incredible levels of fitness with little more than a lot of high-intensity football-specific workouts. I don't buy it.
If you want to see what the fittest teams in Spain and Germany are doing, they don't buy into that philosophy at all.
Only about thirty percent of your weekly exertions should be at game-intensity, and I would say that if all of those exertions are only specific to football, there is far greater risk of imbalances than if resistance training and cross-training is included. For instance, the the quadraceps need more strenuous exercise than can be attained from football-specific exercise only, and if this exercise is neglected, then the over-development of the opposite muscles of the hamstrings brought on by football-related movements can greatly increase risk of injuries especially to the knees and hamstrings. That is probably why you'll see so many footballers doing cycling or leg extensions in the weight room. [Post edited 19 Jan 2014 18:26]
| | | |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 18:26 - Jan 19 with 1414 views | shingle |
The only reason we may end up getting relegated is because of the Europa league, without us wasting our time in this 2nd tier cup we should just have been concentrating on staying in the Prem, there is no doubt in my mind that our squad would have been good enough to do this, but all these games have wrecked us, Laudrup should have played a second string team in the Europa from the start, by not doing so we may now find ourselves playing championship football next year, something that could so easily have been avoided.  | | | |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 18:32 - Jan 19 with 1392 views | Dull1Thomas |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 18:26 - Jan 19 by shingle |
The only reason we may end up getting relegated is because of the Europa league, without us wasting our time in this 2nd tier cup we should just have been concentrating on staying in the Prem, there is no doubt in my mind that our squad would have been good enough to do this, but all these games have wrecked us, Laudrup should have played a second string team in the Europa from the start, by not doing so we may now find ourselves playing championship football next year, something that could so easily have been avoided. |
Yeah, if only we have about 17 games left with 14 giving us a chance of points. We can but dream. | |
| |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 18:38 - Jan 19 with 1365 views | therealme |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 18:26 - Jan 19 by shingle |
The only reason we may end up getting relegated is because of the Europa league, without us wasting our time in this 2nd tier cup we should just have been concentrating on staying in the Prem, there is no doubt in my mind that our squad would have been good enough to do this, but all these games have wrecked us, Laudrup should have played a second string team in the Europa from the start, by not doing so we may now find ourselves playing championship football next year, something that could so easily have been avoided. |
Sorry that's just plain wrong and sadly people believe it
Fulham, yes FULHAM, reached the FINAL of the Europa League, the SIXTH round of the FA Cup and finished 12th under Roy Hodgson. So yeah |  |
| Francesco's black and white army ⚪ï¸âš«ï¸ |
| |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 18:46 - Jan 19 with 1335 views | Dull1Thomas |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 18:38 - Jan 19 by therealme |
Sorry that's just plain wrong and sadly people believe it
Fulham, yes FULHAM, reached the FINAL of the Europa League, the SIXTH round of the FA Cup and finished 12th under Roy Hodgson. So yeah |
But it's Europe.
It's second rate and it's full of foreigners.
Getting to some games takes the team up to 5 hours compared to only 9 to Newcastle.
It's not like winning the second tin pot cup in England.
Or doing well in the English Football Association Cup - the home of Association Football.
What we need is a team of English players who will tackle hard and shoot from 90 yards, an English manager and Premier League mediocrity will be ours. | |
| |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 18:46 - Jan 19 with 1335 views | Dr_Winston |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 18:38 - Jan 19 by therealme |
Sorry that's just plain wrong and sadly people believe it
Fulham, yes FULHAM, reached the FINAL of the Europa League, the SIXTH round of the FA Cup and finished 12th under Roy Hodgson. So yeah |
Well said. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
| |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 18:50 - Jan 19 with 1320 views | waynekerr55 |
| The official Swansea City V Spurs matchday thread on 18:22 - Jan 19 by Dibaba |
Wayne, I don't have a problem having this debate; but we need some ground rules.
First of all it isn't fair to characterize me as the proponent of general conditioning over specific conditioning, as I clearly said both are needed. But when one is not playing football in the offseason, or if one is, they are not playing at anywhere near maximal level -- then introducing too much football specific training at too high of an intensity (and often there is a risk that players keen to make an impression in preseason will not be able to reign in their level of exertion) to early in preseason would probably present far greater risk of injury than introducing the specific training after one has adequately built up the basic muscle groups and anatomical structures needed for any type of strenuous effort, football-related or otherwise. Specific training is absolutely essential but timing is key. If introduced too soon without general conditioning adequately attained, it can greatly increase risk of injury.
As I mentioned earlier, it is a very difficult task both for a conditioning coach and for the players to adequately build a base with enough volume, intensity, and specificity during the rather short offseason and preseason to the degree that the team is ready to play make or break Europa League qualifiers and continue for 8 or 9 months.
Presuming, for the sake of argument, all the training were roughly equal to last season, did you really expect to see as few injuries this season as last season?
You asked me why it is important to keep the heart rate constant when building one's cardiovascular fitness. If you need to know, there is plenty of literature on why. And there are plenty of teams that are wearing heart rate monitors in order to measure recovery rate, exertion, etc. in order to keep the training at the optimal intensity.
You seem to know about the SAID (Specific Adaptations to Imposed Demands) Principle. But you don't seem to be aware that the rate of adaptation is optimised when changes in volume, intensity, and specificity are likewise optimised. Too little or too much change in any of those factors can slow down the rate of adaptation.
And the general rule is that increases in volume must be increased before intensity, and specificity must be increased last, or at least a while after volume has reached near-peak levels.
Now of course there some sports physiologists that think there are shortcuts. They think you can achieve incredible levels of fitness with little more than a lot of high-intensity football-specific workouts. I don't buy it.
If you want to see what the fittest teams in Spain and Germany are doing, they don't buy into that philosophy at all.
Only about thirty percent of your weekly exertions should be at game-intensity, and I would say that if all of those exertions are only specific to football, there is far greater risk of imbalances than if resistance training and cross-training is included. For instance, the the quadraceps need more strenuous exercise than can be attained from football-specific exercise only, and if this exercise is neglected, then the over-development of the opposite muscles of the hamstrings brought on by football-related movements can greatly increase risk of injuries especially to the knees and hamstrings. That is probably why you'll see so many footballers doing cycling or leg extensions in the weight room. [Post edited 19 Jan 2014 18:26]
|
Sorry Diaba, didn't want to characterise you as a proponent of general training 
A lot of the stuff I have looked at is the use of specific movements and tailoring the volume based upon fixture lists/previous injuries etc.
Whilst I agree that there is a place for core strength/resistance etc. there are ways to prepare people using the specific training. As you say, less volume earlier in the pre season stage (say by varying distance/time/number of players etc.) can get the heart rate up and use the mixture of energy systems/fibres etc. Out of interest what are the sample sizes of these studies for using continued elevated HR?
I may well be way off the mark, but I think one thing we are agreed on is that the huge jump in non impact muscle injuries needs looking at. My big question (as I'm not privvy to everything) - has the club controlled all of the controllable elements? | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
