| The Peter principle 09:49 - Dec 4 with 1053 views | fatpat |
The Peter principle is a concept in management theory formulated by Laurence J. Peter in which the selection of a candidate for a position is based on the candidate's performance in their current role, rather than on abilities relevant to the intended role. Thus, employees only stop being promoted once they can no longer perform effectively, and "managers rise to the level of their incompetence."
Is there a very real threat here that if we continue to hire from within, and the new manager, who was perfectly competent in his previous role, gets binned, that we end up shipping out all that is/was good about our academy?
If you look at TH, I think most people said he was really very good in a youth or academy set up. Apart from the ridiculous abuse that he had to suffer from a minority of fans, why should we not try to offer him something back in his previous role? Although this might sound pretty stupid at first, consider what his next role in football is likely to be. With a light and not particularly proficient managerial track record, like it as not, he will end up in some coaching or academy role elsewhere - which allegedly he is good at. So, all we have done is lose good coaching ability. Lets hope that Brown and McGreal do slightly better in their elevated roles before we lose all of our academy talent.
On a slightly different note, I agree that we should be looking externally for a new manager, but with the express notion that there is no money in the coffers. This may make it difficult to hire who we all desire, but that is unfortunately also the reality.
I also think the Cowling bashers need to rethink their stance on this guy. He is very good for the club in my opinion. |  | | |  |
| The Peter principle on 12:20 - Dec 4 with 1027 views | TheOldOakTree |
Before the Academy, we produced, with minimal resources, Greg Halford, John White, Anthony Wordsworth and sourced Lua Lua. Since then 7 years of the new system has produced how many of that quality?
In my profession it's not good enough to go around telling everyone that I'm good, I'm judged on what I achieve, not how misunderstood I am. I get all manner of problems to deal with, but my Clients aren't interested, they pay their money and they want answers.
As Lead points out we are repeatedly told that TH is the messiah, but some of us have the habit of questioning what we are told and are struggling to see the evidence. If he was good at his job, after all these years, why don't we have a supply of League 1 standard players? If he was such a good manager why are we one place above the relegation zone? Why did he fall out with so many players? I'm not saying he wasn't good, but I've not been presented with any evidence that allows me to think he was anything but poor.
If I persistently failed I would be bankrupt within six months, the bank manager isn't interested in injuries or staff not following instructions.
The previous Directors steered the club through very difficult times (i.e. W@dsw@rth etc), got us promoted to the Championship, set up a deal for the Council to build us a new stadium, instilled hope and excitement for the future.
Now we just survive in League 1, enormous numbers of fans are unhappy, gates are falling, but we are told that RC is good for the club. How is he good? How many points do we get for running an Academy? What was wrong with the previous successful youth set up? Where are all the fans?
I accept that his intentions are good, I accept that he is putting in time effort and money, I accept that he probably doesn't intentionally piss off his customers and I would also agree that the thought of him leaving is a concern, but none of those alone make him good for the club.
In my opinion, he will be good for the club if when he does leave (which I hope is not in the foreseeable future), the club is in as good a shape as when he took over. As things stand, from what I can see, he has a lot to do if that is going to happen, but I hope it does.
Of course an Academy is good, if it doesn't divert from the only important issue, but at the moment the tail appears to be wagging the dog.
If the player budget is limited to income, wouldn't you think that maintaining or increasing that income should be a priority? Some of you see honesty from the Chairman, but sadly far too many see two fingers. That is a big issue and it is not being addressed sufficiently. If it was, I would agree that he is very good for the club.
With regard to people being promoted beyond their ability, sadly I think that happens all too often and normally results in loosing good staff. Not in football, but in most other jobs, wage structures are usually such that you have to get promoted to get a pay rise. That's daft really, because being a manager is just a different job and shouldn't mean you should get paid more than a skilled person you are managing. Instead we have a country full of experienced people no longer doing the job they are good at, but instead trying to manage the mistakes of inexperienced people that took their place. [Post edited 4 Dec 2015 12:36]
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| The Peter principle on 10:35 - Dec 7 with 926 views | fatpat |
| The Peter principle on 12:20 - Dec 4 by TheOldOakTree |
Before the Academy, we produced, with minimal resources, Greg Halford, John White, Anthony Wordsworth and sourced Lua Lua. Since then 7 years of the new system has produced how many of that quality?
In my profession it's not good enough to go around telling everyone that I'm good, I'm judged on what I achieve, not how misunderstood I am. I get all manner of problems to deal with, but my Clients aren't interested, they pay their money and they want answers.
As Lead points out we are repeatedly told that TH is the messiah, but some of us have the habit of questioning what we are told and are struggling to see the evidence. If he was good at his job, after all these years, why don't we have a supply of League 1 standard players? If he was such a good manager why are we one place above the relegation zone? Why did he fall out with so many players? I'm not saying he wasn't good, but I've not been presented with any evidence that allows me to think he was anything but poor.
If I persistently failed I would be bankrupt within six months, the bank manager isn't interested in injuries or staff not following instructions.
The previous Directors steered the club through very difficult times (i.e. W@dsw@rth etc), got us promoted to the Championship, set up a deal for the Council to build us a new stadium, instilled hope and excitement for the future.
Now we just survive in League 1, enormous numbers of fans are unhappy, gates are falling, but we are told that RC is good for the club. How is he good? How many points do we get for running an Academy? What was wrong with the previous successful youth set up? Where are all the fans?
I accept that his intentions are good, I accept that he is putting in time effort and money, I accept that he probably doesn't intentionally piss off his customers and I would also agree that the thought of him leaving is a concern, but none of those alone make him good for the club.
In my opinion, he will be good for the club if when he does leave (which I hope is not in the foreseeable future), the club is in as good a shape as when he took over. As things stand, from what I can see, he has a lot to do if that is going to happen, but I hope it does.
Of course an Academy is good, if it doesn't divert from the only important issue, but at the moment the tail appears to be wagging the dog.
If the player budget is limited to income, wouldn't you think that maintaining or increasing that income should be a priority? Some of you see honesty from the Chairman, but sadly far too many see two fingers. That is a big issue and it is not being addressed sufficiently. If it was, I would agree that he is very good for the club.
With regard to people being promoted beyond their ability, sadly I think that happens all too often and normally results in loosing good staff. Not in football, but in most other jobs, wage structures are usually such that you have to get promoted to get a pay rise. That's daft really, because being a manager is just a different job and shouldn't mean you should get paid more than a skilled person you are managing. Instead we have a country full of experienced people no longer doing the job they are good at, but instead trying to manage the mistakes of inexperienced people that took their place. [Post edited 4 Dec 2015 12:36]
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Wow. Well it is good to hit a raw nerve every now and then.
Some pretty off topic ramblings there OakTree to be honest mate.
The bulk of my post was regarding the Peter principle. It was not any statement of fact or otherwise as to whether the academy was a success or not. In fact I never even stated that TH was good, bad, the 'Messiah' or otherwise. My words were in fact;
'If you look at TH, I think most people said he was really very good in a youth or academy set up.'
My only point on this topic was whether we might be losing some talented coaching individuals as a function of the hire and fire policies we see in football. Again, this is a professional sport phenomenon in the main.
I am confused as to why you wish RC to stay, given the litany of mistakes he is making in your opinion.
Finally, I was not looking for a critique as to why we have no player budget, merely that there isn't one. That is fact. If the names being bandied around this message board are unrealistic due to the manager's wage or transfer fund demands, then why bother mentioning them? Pep isn't going to Man Utd don't you know? And funnily enough isn't coming to Col Utd either.
I don't want to unleash the beast in you here fella, but I thought your response was a bit aggressive and not particularly cogent or in line with the initial thread. | | | |
| The Peter principle on 20:24 - Dec 7 with 899 views | TheOldOakTree |
My sincerest apologies if you read aggression, it was no more than passion when it left my keyboard. Certainly only intended to stir up some debate, not to offed you or anyone else.
Following on from Peter principal, other than football, in how many other jobs does excelling in your field get you the sack?
There must be many players who have fought all season to get promotion, to then be shown the door because they are considered not good enough for the next level. Life can take the Micky sometimes. | | | |
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