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Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 09:12 - Feb 18 by Dr_Parnassus
So you are having a go at me for something I haven’t done? Strange one.
No, top 10 would be about right. That should be the minimum we expect, however our aim should always be to perform above our levels, it’s the only way we can get success and it’s achievable as many precious managers have shown.
Our free transfers also skew that figure which would naturally trend that upwards. Not many clubs have free transfers of the calibre of Joe Allen, Ntcham and Pato.
Top 10 should be bare minimum Top 8 should be realistic expectation Top 6 will be a success
Whoever comes in will have their expectations set by the same metrics. Hopefully we sell someone for a large amount of money, so we can plough maybe half back into the side and we shoot up in the spend and squad value rankings, meaning it should correlate with a higher finish.
It’s the only way a club like us can grow. If we live completely within our means then we won’t get anywhere. We have to have a fine balance between prospective purchasing and external investment.
I think we have managed that superbly since relegation and not one season have I felt we have been left with a side incapable of playoffs. The only reason I feel that now is due to the way they are managed.
We would have every chance with another manager at the helm. I’m sure you agree it’s not unreasonable to think another manager with a more sensible approach would have won 2 extra games out of the 31 we have seen so far.
We would be 5th if so.
You’ve done it plenty of times. I didn’t want this thread to go the same way.
I completely agree with your last point. We’re not as far off as people like to portray. We’re actually two injury time collapses (I can’t even remember how many we’ve had but it’s more than that) away from exceeding your expectations League table wise.
The ‘whoever comes in…’ bit is the point. Martins first season being a clear exception, we haven’t invested anywhere near half of what we’ve raised back into the squad. I’d guess it’s 20% if we’re being generous. One off that happens. Consistently, we’re in decline.
It’s the sane metrics, it’s just from a weaker starting point each time.
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Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 10:01 - Feb 18 with 718 views
Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 09:43 - Feb 18 by jack247
You’ve done it plenty of times. I didn’t want this thread to go the same way.
I completely agree with your last point. We’re not as far off as people like to portray. We’re actually two injury time collapses (I can’t even remember how many we’ve had but it’s more than that) away from exceeding your expectations League table wise.
The ‘whoever comes in…’ bit is the point. Martins first season being a clear exception, we haven’t invested anywhere near half of what we’ve raised back into the squad. I’d guess it’s 20% if we’re being generous. One off that happens. Consistently, we’re in decline.
It’s the sane metrics, it’s just from a weaker starting point each time.
I don’t remember ever insulting you. You will have to jog my memory, there must have been a valid reason if it’s true.
Well we are as far off, that’s the thing. 6-7 points under Martin is massive, it took us 16 games to win 2 games not so long ago. So to make up 6 points on about 6 teams above you is a very tough task.
Another manager at the helm and that 6 point gap or whatever it is becomes a lot smaller.
Each point is not necessarily a weaker starting point. For example I rate this side ahead of our play off final one.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 10:10 - Feb 18 by Dr_Parnassus
I don’t remember ever insulting you. You will have to jog my memory, there must have been a valid reason if it’s true.
Well we are as far off, that’s the thing. 6-7 points under Martin is massive, it took us 16 games to win 2 games not so long ago. So to make up 6 points on about 6 teams above you is a very tough task.
Another manager at the helm and that 6 point gap or whatever it is becomes a lot smaller.
Each point is not necessarily a weaker starting point. For example I rate this side ahead of our play off final one.
Just the kind of tittle tattle you have with Daps and STID. I’ll be able to find an example if it’s important, I’ve just got no interest in that kind of conversation and would rather not go there.
Each point is not necessarily weaker than the previous one I agree, it’s not a straight line graph. The reality is, if we have to sell players for £10m and spend £1m replacing them year after year, it’s only going one way in the medium to long term. My bet is we’ll have to sell Piroe or 2/3 others this season and will replace on the cheap.
That doesn’t mean we won’t find the odd Michu or develop another Rodon and when that happens, we may have a stronger team than the preceding season. That will be the exception not the rule
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Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 10:38 - Feb 18 with 675 views
Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 10:28 - Feb 18 by jack247
Just the kind of tittle tattle you have with Daps and STID. I’ll be able to find an example if it’s important, I’ve just got no interest in that kind of conversation and would rather not go there.
Each point is not necessarily weaker than the previous one I agree, it’s not a straight line graph. The reality is, if we have to sell players for £10m and spend £1m replacing them year after year, it’s only going one way in the medium to long term. My bet is we’ll have to sell Piroe or 2/3 others this season and will replace on the cheap.
That doesn’t mean we won’t find the odd Michu or develop another Rodon and when that happens, we may have a stronger team than the preceding season. That will be the exception not the rule
Difference between abuse and tittle tattle though, the stuff between the posters you mention are usually instigated by them. I don’t remember being abusive to anyone for no reason, doesn’t sound like me at all, I don’t really have to as I have the ability to converse and debate.
If we invest only 10% of every sale then maybe, but relegation book balancing sales aside I don’t think that will be the case and it hasn’t proven to be. If you have a few million to spend every year (which we have done other than under Cooper) then you have every opportunity to improve the side. I’d happily sell a Downes for £10m to spend £4m elsewhere.
I wouldn’t say that’s true regarding being the exception and not the rule, hence why net spend is showing itself to be as inaccurate as I said it would be. Sell Cabango for £7m tomorrow and I would back any manager to strengthen our side with half of that sale to spend.
It’s simply different markets. It’s like buying in China and selling in America. You can generally get more for your money elsewhere than the big money we can charge being a second tier team in the English leagues.
There is a reason people outsource production to better value markets. They can buy for cheap and sell for more, doesn’t mean their quality erodes, often quite the opposite.
[Post edited 18 Feb 2023 10:46]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 10:38 - Feb 18 by Dr_Parnassus
Difference between abuse and tittle tattle though, the stuff between the posters you mention are usually instigated by them. I don’t remember being abusive to anyone for no reason, doesn’t sound like me at all, I don’t really have to as I have the ability to converse and debate.
If we invest only 10% of every sale then maybe, but relegation book balancing sales aside I don’t think that will be the case and it hasn’t proven to be. If you have a few million to spend every year (which we have done other than under Cooper) then you have every opportunity to improve the side. I’d happily sell a Downes for £10m to spend £4m elsewhere.
I wouldn’t say that’s true regarding being the exception and not the rule, hence why net spend is showing itself to be as inaccurate as I said it would be. Sell Cabango for £7m tomorrow and I would back any manager to strengthen our side with half of that sale to spend.
It’s simply different markets. It’s like buying in China and selling in America. You can generally get more for your money elsewhere than the big money we can charge being a second tier team in the English leagues.
There is a reason people outsource production to better value markets. They can buy for cheap and sell for more, doesn’t mean their quality erodes, often quite the opposite.
[Post edited 18 Feb 2023 10:46]
The 10% isn’t far off though.
Ignoring the Potter season, we’ve spent 10.7m on new players and sold 70.6m. In euros as from transfermarkt but obviously the percentages are the same. That’s around 15%
Yes, if we were selling British players for £10m abd bringing in £5m replacements from Eastern Europe or Africa or wherever, we may well strengthen the squad. Our three permanent transfers this season have been from MK Dons, Stoke and Middlesbrough. Not including the new keeper as he is just backup until the end of the season.
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Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 11:05 - Feb 18 with 666 views
Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 10:53 - Feb 18 by jack247
The 10% isn’t far off though.
Ignoring the Potter season, we’ve spent 10.7m on new players and sold 70.6m. In euros as from transfermarkt but obviously the percentages are the same. That’s around 15%
Yes, if we were selling British players for £10m abd bringing in £5m replacements from Eastern Europe or Africa or wherever, we may well strengthen the squad. Our three permanent transfers this season have been from MK Dons, Stoke and Middlesbrough. Not including the new keeper as he is just backup until the end of the season.
It’s not just the Potter season though. It takes more than 1 year to slash costs from the Premier League, that’s why parachute payments last longer than 12 months. It’s a 3 year exercise to shed those overheads.
Since parachute payments ended…
Sales: €15.25m Purchases: €8.22m
That’s 54% of sales reinvested into purchases from the season Martin took over.
That’s more than acceptable.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 11:05 - Feb 18 by Dr_Parnassus
It’s not just the Potter season though. It takes more than 1 year to slash costs from the Premier League, that’s why parachute payments last longer than 12 months. It’s a 3 year exercise to shed those overheads.
Since parachute payments ended…
Sales: €15.25m Purchases: €8.22m
That’s 54% of sales reinvested into purchases from the season Martin took over.
That’s more than acceptable.
That doesn’t really apply when we obliterated our PL squad and their wages in the first August transfer window. We had Ayew as our only big hitting PL earner by the time Cooper arrived (£4m a year).
We had Naughton, Dyer, Routledge as experienced first team players (the first two had negotiated reduced contracts) and VdH, Grimes, Roberts possibly one or two I can’t remember but no big hitters by then.
I think parachute payments are around £80m between the first two seasons.
More than half of that 70m euros was raised from players whos best contract was signed after relegation.
Either way, if we sell Canango and Piroe for £20m and plough £10m back into the squad, i can see the argument. I just don’t see it happening.
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Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 11:43 - Feb 18 with 641 views
Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 11:29 - Feb 18 by jack247
That doesn’t really apply when we obliterated our PL squad and their wages in the first August transfer window. We had Ayew as our only big hitting PL earner by the time Cooper arrived (£4m a year).
We had Naughton, Dyer, Routledge as experienced first team players (the first two had negotiated reduced contracts) and VdH, Grimes, Roberts possibly one or two I can’t remember but no big hitters by then.
I think parachute payments are around £80m between the first two seasons.
More than half of that 70m euros was raised from players whos best contract was signed after relegation.
Either way, if we sell Canango and Piroe for £20m and plough £10m back into the squad, i can see the argument. I just don’t see it happening.
Of course it applies.
McBurnie, James, Montero, Narsingh, Fer and Jordan Ayew were still on our books in season 2.
Dyer, Routledge, Andre Ayew, Van der Hoorn and Mulder were still on our books in season 3, when we had the smaller last parachute payment.
Each year we close to broke even, spending anything spare on giving the managers a side capable of challenging for play offs.
That’s continued now, except we don’t need to make as many sales.
Here is the explanation from the last time you brought up the sales, there is a far bigger shortfall to make up than what you list.
[Post edited 18 Feb 2023 11:48]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 10:13 - Feb 18 by Dr_Parnassus
Not worth bothering when up against clear data, no.
Same advice I’d give to a flat earther trying to debate at a physics convention.
Pointless task really.
Clear data, it's interesting that data is only used to prove points in one direction and other data is not applicable.
Either way, i would advise that you keep you condescension towards others to a minimum as for the most part you are dealing in opinion and your interpretation of statistics. Those are things in which one cannot be right or wrong.
Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 11:48 - Feb 18 by BryanSwan
Clear data, it's interesting that data is only used to prove points in one direction and other data is not applicable.
Either way, i would advise that you keep you condescension towards others to a minimum as for the most part you are dealing in opinion and your interpretation of statistics. Those are things in which one cannot be right or wrong.
Which data do you think is applicable that I have discounted?
I assume that’s you mistakenly using penalties in a shot conversion % to prove who is the best finisher? Surely I don’t have to explain why that’s extremely flawed?
It’s not MY interpretation of data, it’s just the correct interpretation of data. If that’s condescending then it’s condescending.
It’s also the truth.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 11:43 - Feb 18 by Dr_Parnassus
Of course it applies.
McBurnie, James, Montero, Narsingh, Fer and Jordan Ayew were still on our books in season 2.
Dyer, Routledge, Andre Ayew, Van der Hoorn and Mulder were still on our books in season 3, when we had the smaller last parachute payment.
Each year we close to broke even, spending anything spare on giving the managers a side capable of challenging for play offs.
That’s continued now, except we don’t need to make as many sales.
Here is the explanation from the last time you brought up the sales, there is a far bigger shortfall to make up than what you list.
[Post edited 18 Feb 2023 11:48]
McBurnie was on an U23 contract, we were already in the championship when he got an improved one. Same goes for Roberts and Rodon. I’m not sure if Dan James had the same or was still on his U23 contract when he left.
By season 2, do you mean the first season after relegation? They weren’t there in Coopers first season. They may have been in pre season, but can’t remember any of them playing under him.
That’s £80m (plus whatever you get in the third season) 70 m euros plus whatever we got for the likes of Mawson and Fabianski.
We don’t have the capacity to make as many sales. We don’t have many high value players left.
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Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 12:04 - Feb 18 with 606 views
Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 11:55 - Feb 18 by jack247
McBurnie was on an U23 contract, we were already in the championship when he got an improved one. Same goes for Roberts and Rodon. I’m not sure if Dan James had the same or was still on his U23 contract when he left.
By season 2, do you mean the first season after relegation? They weren’t there in Coopers first season. They may have been in pre season, but can’t remember any of them playing under him.
That’s £80m (plus whatever you get in the third season) 70 m euros plus whatever we got for the likes of Mawson and Fabianski.
We don’t have the capacity to make as many sales. We don’t have many high value players left.
McBurnie and James were officially sold in season 2.
1st of August from memory.
McBurnie was on 15k when he was sold. Ayew was still on 80k and Borja was on close to 30k
I’ve explained several times where the black hole was. The accounts are there for everyone.
Are you suggesting we had €70m to spend?
If so can you explain where?
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 10:10 - Feb 18 by Dr_Parnassus
I don’t remember ever insulting you. You will have to jog my memory, there must have been a valid reason if it’s true.
Well we are as far off, that’s the thing. 6-7 points under Martin is massive, it took us 16 games to win 2 games not so long ago. So to make up 6 points on about 6 teams above you is a very tough task.
Another manager at the helm and that 6 point gap or whatever it is becomes a lot smaller.
Each point is not necessarily a weaker starting point. For example I rate this side ahead of our play off final one.
"I don’t remember ever insulting you. You will have to jog my memory, there must have been a valid reason if it’s true." You told me yesterday you are always polite ? How would that corollate with the above statement where you admit you would insult someone if there was a valid reason ? A person that is always polite would never consider insult anyone, no matter what provocation.
"Sanity and happiness are an impossible combination" - Mark Twain
Year 1: £7m loss Year 2: £2.7m profit Year 3: £4.6m loss
The above is what we know so far. That’s including all player sales, all income, all expenditure - everything.
So over those three seasons we made a combined loss of £8.9m.
So all this talk of “transfer profit” and “parachute payments” doesn’t come into it. This income was a necessity to cushion the cost of the 7 years of Premier League football we had.
We had those 3 seasons to become relatively sustainable which it appears we have managed to be, roughly.
So, since then we have spend 54% of transfer income on player purchases.
But it’s still not completely self sufficient as the owners have also put in £16m to ensure not only can we continue to spend that kind of money, but we can also continue to service our overheads.
Anyone who criticises that hasn’t been paying attention.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 12:14 - Feb 18 by STID2017
"I don’t remember ever insulting you. You will have to jog my memory, there must have been a valid reason if it’s true." You told me yesterday you are always polite ? How would that corollate with the above statement where you admit you would insult someone if there was a valid reason ? A person that is always polite would never consider insult anyone, no matter what provocation.
Stephen Fry is always polite, it would certainly be a fair way to describe him.
Attack him however and I’m sure he will respond in kind.
Same goes for yours truly.
Thanks for asking.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 12:04 - Feb 18 by Dr_Parnassus
McBurnie and James were officially sold in season 2.
1st of August from memory.
McBurnie was on 15k when he was sold. Ayew was still on 80k and Borja was on close to 30k
I’ve explained several times where the black hole was. The accounts are there for everyone.
Are you suggesting we had €70m to spend?
If so can you explain where?
Yes, so they were here in season 2 on a technicality. They didn’t play for us and we only paid them for a fraction of the season. Borja was on loan for the bulk of our time in the Championship, I’m not sure how much of his wages we were paying but it wasn’t 100%. Same goes for Ayew the season he went to Turkey.
Not at all. I’m not suggesting anything. I’m stating that since relegation, we’ve had well over £150m between player sales and parachute payments (appreciate the sales aren’t all upfront but neither are our outgoings), have slashed wages far more dramatically than the average club that the parachute payments are there to protect and have very few saleable assets remaining.
I can’t see the argument for us being well run
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Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 12:24 - Feb 18 with 580 views
Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 12:19 - Feb 18 by jack247
Yes, so they were here in season 2 on a technicality. They didn’t play for us and we only paid them for a fraction of the season. Borja was on loan for the bulk of our time in the Championship, I’m not sure how much of his wages we were paying but it wasn’t 100%. Same goes for Ayew the season he went to Turkey.
Not at all. I’m not suggesting anything. I’m stating that since relegation, we’ve had well over £150m between player sales and parachute payments (appreciate the sales aren’t all upfront but neither are our outgoings), have slashed wages far more dramatically than the average club that the parachute payments are there to protect and have very few saleable assets remaining.
I can’t see the argument for us being well run
It’s not a technicality, it’s vital to the point. These years are specifically split for specific reasons.
Over those three seasons we lost £8.9m, including all those sales and transfer “profit”. That shows how expensive it was to do what we did in the Premier League and the job these owners had to right the ship after such a successful decade and the costs that come with it.
The fact we sold them is the argument for being well run. Do you think it would be well run if we kept them then?
I am not sure what it is you are advocating we should have done?
That £8.9m loss (which is excellent for Championship standards) would likely be a £250m loss then. Which would you prefer of the two?
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
god morning everyone hope all safe and well? Just a question Dr P,and i expect yout usual straight answer no argument just your opinion please, If as you say ( and looks liken re the pole the majority of fans agree) if these owners are running the club well and doing the best for Swansea fc why has the manager not been removed,? as we even now are mathmatically still in with a chance of a play off position , my opinion for what its worthis they dont want to pay the fees to remove them, you were in conversation on or about the 18th when it was stated that a new manager would reduce the 6 or 7 point gap as difficult as that would be or words to that effect i may have miss quoted but if as you contiually state the owners are doing the best for the club they unlike a lot of clubs in this div have not removed an under performing manager to improve Swansea ? thanking you in advance
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Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 09:10 - Feb 20 with 465 views
Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 08:50 - Feb 20 by pete
god morning everyone hope all safe and well? Just a question Dr P,and i expect yout usual straight answer no argument just your opinion please, If as you say ( and looks liken re the pole the majority of fans agree) if these owners are running the club well and doing the best for Swansea fc why has the manager not been removed,? as we even now are mathmatically still in with a chance of a play off position , my opinion for what its worthis they dont want to pay the fees to remove them, you were in conversation on or about the 18th when it was stated that a new manager would reduce the 6 or 7 point gap as difficult as that would be or words to that effect i may have miss quoted but if as you contiually state the owners are doing the best for the club they unlike a lot of clubs in this div have not removed an under performing manager to improve Swansea ? thanking you in advance
So if they get rid, who are they going hire at this stage of the season?
January was frustrating, but would you honestly trust him with anymore money.
We are going nowhere this season, let's part amicably at the end of the season
You give it out, you take it back it`s all part of the game
Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 09:10 - Feb 20 by raynor94
So if they get rid, who are they going hire at this stage of the season?
January was frustrating, but would you honestly trust him with anymore money.
We are going nowhere this season, let's part amicably at the end of the season
I am not asking about anything other than are the owners doing the right thing when no wins in a lot of games when other owners in this div are removing managers afte 12 games for instance ( others and qpr) and R M is 1 of the longest serving in the Div now, as to giving him money he makes recomendations after the recruitment team as sourced players they then sort deal which i vetoed by said owners so how do you me or anyone know how any incoming player would have improved the squad or not when deal after deal has been vetoed, see where you are coming from and respect your opinion but afraid i disagree
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Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 09:44 - Feb 20 with 444 views
Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 08:50 - Feb 20 by pete
god morning everyone hope all safe and well? Just a question Dr P,and i expect yout usual straight answer no argument just your opinion please, If as you say ( and looks liken re the pole the majority of fans agree) if these owners are running the club well and doing the best for Swansea fc why has the manager not been removed,? as we even now are mathmatically still in with a chance of a play off position , my opinion for what its worthis they dont want to pay the fees to remove them, you were in conversation on or about the 18th when it was stated that a new manager would reduce the 6 or 7 point gap as difficult as that would be or words to that effect i may have miss quoted but if as you contiually state the owners are doing the best for the club they unlike a lot of clubs in this div have not removed an under performing manager to improve Swansea ? thanking you in advance
That’s been answered already.
It’s expensive to sack and manager and their whole staff. Plus you need to have the required replacement lined up.
He is probably fine to get us to the end of the season, and that is when the pool of managers is at its largest. It’s not as easy as just sacking someone, several facets to it.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City on 09:26 - Feb 20 by pete
I am not asking about anything other than are the owners doing the right thing when no wins in a lot of games when other owners in this div are removing managers afte 12 games for instance ( others and qpr) and R M is 1 of the longest serving in the Div now, as to giving him money he makes recomendations after the recruitment team as sourced players they then sort deal which i vetoed by said owners so how do you me or anyone know how any incoming player would have improved the squad or not when deal after deal has been vetoed, see where you are coming from and respect your opinion but afraid i disagree
Well we were led to believe Grant was coming in on £17k a week, until West Brom pulled the plug at the last minute
You give it out, you take it back it`s all part of the game
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