| Strikers and KH 09:12 - Nov 20 with 17079 views | geraldo |
Does our manager really understand about strikers? What I mean is instinctive players who are goal poachers. We haven't had one since Scot Hogan and yet a team like Oldham who until Saturday I would have rated below us, fielded two who both feature in the top strikers in Lg 1 - one of them who scores a goal per game.
We had Redshaw ( for some reason) who scored 4 on Saturday but let him go after scoring a hat trick in a friendly. Steve Davies is our best striker and he got 10 minutes game time on Saturday - if fit he should start every game.
We picked up our biggest ever windfall this season from the Hogan sell on but have spent sweet fa - maybe the Board don't trust KH's judgement? |  | | |  |
| Strikers and KH on 15:36 - Nov 22 with 2730 views | dingdangblue |
| Strikers and KH on 15:25 - Nov 22 by geraldo |
Just a point - most of the low cost strikers were not recruited by KH - they pre date him.
The fees we paid years ago for the likes of Flounders et al would now be in the region of £1m today. Dale had very little money when they bought the strikers you refer to but at least the Board had bxxls!! |
That was pre Bosman. In them days when a player was out of contract you still got a fee. How can we justify buying a forward for say 500k, 5k per week and he leaves for nowt after 2 seasons because he let his contract run down. To say the board back then had bollocks compared to now is well.............bollocks. |  |
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| Strikers and KH on 15:45 - Nov 22 with 2715 views | TVOS1907 |
| Strikers and KH on 15:25 - Nov 22 by geraldo |
Just a point - most of the low cost strikers were not recruited by KH - they pre date him.
The fees we paid years ago for the likes of Flounders et al would now be in the region of £1m today. Dale had very little money when they bought the strikers you refer to but at least the Board had bxxls!! |
Flounders was bought with the Keith Welch money, who was sold to Bristol City for a fee in the region of £300,000.
Platt & Connor came at a time when clubs had benefited from ITV Digital money.
We are now in League One where we will have to pay higher wages. The players we have aren't playing for free.
We have also bought the ground and spent money on it - look at how well the pitch is looking so far this season.
To say the club don't spend any money is insulting and ignorant of what it takes to run a football club like ours. |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Strikers and KH on 18:51 - Nov 22 with 2603 views | 442Dale |
| Strikers and KH on 15:25 - Nov 22 by geraldo |
Just a point - most of the low cost strikers were not recruited by KH - they pre date him.
The fees we paid years ago for the likes of Flounders et al would now be in the region of £1m today. Dale had very little money when they bought the strikers you refer to but at least the Board had bxxls!! |
The board back the manager now. There's a valid argument that we haven't recruited as well as we could have this season, but it's not something that comes down to finance alone.
Where was the info on Hogan/Allen money from? |  |
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| Strikers and KH on 19:44 - Nov 22 with 2574 views | TVOS1907 |
| Strikers and KH on 18:51 - Nov 22 by 442Dale |
The board back the manager now. There's a valid argument that we haven't recruited as well as we could have this season, but it's not something that comes down to finance alone.
Where was the info on Hogan/Allen money from? |
... and where are these strikers we could/should be signing, geraldo? | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Strikers and KH on 20:39 - Nov 22 with 2529 views | dalenumber2 |
I actually don't think it's about getting new players. The squad we have should be good enough to achieve a modest position in league 1. A lot of them have been in much better form in the past. What has happened? Formation? Team selection? Mindset? Fitness? I think we would perform better if whatever it is can just click into place. |  | | |
| Strikers and KH on 21:39 - Nov 22 with 2471 views | fitzochris |
| Strikers and KH on 20:39 - Nov 22 by dalenumber2 |
I actually don't think it's about getting new players. The squad we have should be good enough to achieve a modest position in league 1. A lot of them have been in much better form in the past. What has happened? Formation? Team selection? Mindset? Fitness? I think we would perform better if whatever it is can just click into place. |
Let’s look at the players recruited, though. Have they been good enough?
Matt Done (chipped in with a few goals but not the player he was (being played out of position didn’t help)
Brendan Moore (seems alright in the few opportunities he has had)
Brad Inman (bath tap - hot and cold)
Jordan Williams Barrow (huge fee, no impact, Jon Shaw)
Jordan Williams Liverpool (decent, but would be nice if it was confirmed to all fans that he is injured)
Kosi N’Clare (decent game against non-League opposition, otherwise anon)
Reece Brown (appalling in limited outings)
Donervon Daniels (absolute waste of a loan)
Jordan Slew (absolute waste of a wage as he’s not being given much of a chance) |  |
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| Strikers and KH on 23:59 - Nov 22 with 2404 views | geraldo |
| Strikers and KH on 19:44 - Nov 22 by TVOS1907 |
... and where are these strikers we could/should be signing, geraldo? |
How about John Steadman of Notts County - he has been a premiership player | | | |
| Strikers and KH on 00:02 - Nov 23 with 2402 views | TVOS1907 |
| Strikers and KH on 23:59 - Nov 22 by geraldo |
How about John Steadman of Notts County - he has been a premiership player |
Alison’s brother? | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Strikers and KH on 00:02 - Nov 23 with 2401 views | geraldo |
| Strikers and KH on 21:39 - Nov 22 by fitzochris |
Let’s look at the players recruited, though. Have they been good enough?
Matt Done (chipped in with a few goals but not the player he was (being played out of position didn’t help)
Brendan Moore (seems alright in the few opportunities he has had)
Brad Inman (bath tap - hot and cold)
Jordan Williams Barrow (huge fee, no impact, Jon Shaw)
Jordan Williams Liverpool (decent, but would be nice if it was confirmed to all fans that he is injured)
Kosi N’Clare (decent game against non-League opposition, otherwise anon)
Reece Brown (appalling in limited outings)
Donervon Daniels (absolute waste of a loan)
Jordan Slew (absolute waste of a wage as he’s not being given much of a chance) |
how come Oldham can get the likes of Doyle? | | | |
| Strikers and KH on 00:14 - Nov 23 with 2397 views | TVOS1907 |
| Strikers and KH on 00:02 - Nov 23 by geraldo |
how come Oldham can get the likes of Doyle? |
By paying him more in wages than they can realistically afford and more than we could afford. [Post edited 23 Nov 2017 0:18]
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| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Strikers and KH on 01:28 - Nov 23 with 2374 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Strikers and KH on 00:14 - Nov 23 by TVOS1907 |
By paying him more in wages than they can realistically afford and more than we could afford. [Post edited 23 Nov 2017 0:18]
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Really, is that evidence based |  |
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| Strikers and KH on 06:24 - Nov 23 with 2348 views | TVOS1907 |
| Strikers and KH on 01:28 - Nov 23 by rochdaleriddler |
Really, is that evidence based |
No, it’s common sense based. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Strikers and KH on 07:26 - Nov 23 with 2317 views | EllDale |
Is Slew the classic broken toy who is a work in progress? It took a long time for Done and NML to become established and start to score regularly?
By the way, was it Slew's brother who signed for Chester this week? | | | |
| Strikers and KH on 08:52 - Nov 23 with 2269 views | MarpleAlty |
Alty fan here in peace.
There's a general business rule that, if you stand still for 3 years without altering your business model, you very quickly go backwards. Interestingly Hilly has been with you for nearly 5 (second stint).
This isn't an endorsement to dispense with him, by the way - far from it. But what I'm saying is, there seems to be too much of a 'we do things differently here' attitude at Dale that doesn't help. At a different level, it didn't serve United well when Fergie moved on.
What I'm saying, is - the club has been fairly healthy financially for a while now (even before the Hogan money, through his own initial sale and also that of Dawson, etc) so should the club be much more fearless when it comes to paying fees?
I'm not saying for a minute he would have come to Dale over Sheffield Utd - but everyone could see O'Connell was a class act - and available for c.£300k. He's now one of the best centre halves in the Championship and worth 20-30 times that much.
Similarly would someone like Danny Rowe have been available from Fylde? I get the impression the lad from Barrow came because he was the only one being quoted at a 'bargain basement' price in this day and age.
I wonder whether the club looks at previous outlays on the likes of Connor, Platt etc and seem scared to do it now when there's more money flying around. Similarly there are less instances of 'free transfers' like Charlie Austin taking the third tier by storm now. | | | |
| Strikers and KH on 09:05 - Nov 23 with 2253 views | cadmonkey |
| Strikers and KH on 11:38 - Nov 22 by ParkinsGimp |
Aw we lost last night, nevermind, lets all support a DogT""d as long as it has a Dale shirt on. Come on pal , lets get real with this. Some of these signings are shocking and even laughable. If I said to you we are getting a non league striker who has played around 350 games and scored 36 goals , thats around 14 seasons at 25 games a season average and 2.5 goals per season..what would you really say? His contribution to a game is laughable , I cant believe the comments I hear when Andrew jumps for a ball and he actually wins it a, but then it goes back to the opposition.
We are in dire straits here and need something realistic yet magical to get us out of it. |
Andrews is incredible in the air, wins the majority of challenges in the air, can't see it is his fault there are no runners off him?
And I guess I am imagining the tracking back he does and his defensive work. Probably my favorite player.
Just my opinion though |  | | |
| Strikers and KH on 10:13 - Nov 23 with 2197 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| Strikers and KH on 09:05 - Nov 23 by cadmonkey |
Andrews is incredible in the air, wins the majority of challenges in the air, can't see it is his fault there are no runners off him?
And I guess I am imagining the tracking back he does and his defensive work. Probably my favorite player.
Just my opinion though |
I like Bunneys. | |
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| Strikers and KH on 10:14 - Nov 23 with 2196 views | nordenblue |
| Strikers and KH on 09:05 - Nov 23 by cadmonkey |
Andrews is incredible in the air, wins the majority of challenges in the air, can't see it is his fault there are no runners off him?
And I guess I am imagining the tracking back he does and his defensive work. Probably my favorite player.
Just my opinion though |
Don't you bloody well dare come on here with positive comments..... | | | |
| Strikers and KH on 10:33 - Nov 23 with 2173 views | cadmonkey |
| Strikers and KH on 10:14 - Nov 23 by nordenblue |
Don't you bloody well dare come on here with positive comments..... |
Lol, I apologise for any offense caused. | | | |
| Strikers and KH on 10:43 - Nov 23 with 2157 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| Strikers and KH on 09:05 - Nov 23 by cadmonkey |
Andrews is incredible in the air, wins the majority of challenges in the air, can't see it is his fault there are no runners off him?
And I guess I am imagining the tracking back he does and his defensive work. Probably my favorite player.
Just my opinion though |
William Shakespeares is my favourite writer because he has amazing handwriting and is very economical with paper. [Post edited 23 Nov 2017 10:48]
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| Strikers and KH on 10:51 - Nov 23 with 2147 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Strikers and KH on 08:52 - Nov 23 by MarpleAlty |
Alty fan here in peace.
There's a general business rule that, if you stand still for 3 years without altering your business model, you very quickly go backwards. Interestingly Hilly has been with you for nearly 5 (second stint).
This isn't an endorsement to dispense with him, by the way - far from it. But what I'm saying is, there seems to be too much of a 'we do things differently here' attitude at Dale that doesn't help. At a different level, it didn't serve United well when Fergie moved on.
What I'm saying, is - the club has been fairly healthy financially for a while now (even before the Hogan money, through his own initial sale and also that of Dawson, etc) so should the club be much more fearless when it comes to paying fees?
I'm not saying for a minute he would have come to Dale over Sheffield Utd - but everyone could see O'Connell was a class act - and available for c.£300k. He's now one of the best centre halves in the Championship and worth 20-30 times that much.
Similarly would someone like Danny Rowe have been available from Fylde? I get the impression the lad from Barrow came because he was the only one being quoted at a 'bargain basement' price in this day and age.
I wonder whether the club looks at previous outlays on the likes of Connor, Platt etc and seem scared to do it now when there's more money flying around. Similarly there are less instances of 'free transfers' like Charlie Austin taking the third tier by storm now. |
You make a really interesting point about the business model.
For me, that sits with the board of the directors, led by the Chairman and implemented by club employees.
Our model has shifted dramatically since 2006 when the previous Chairman (David Kilpatrick) handed over to current Chariman, Chris Dunphy.
Our model prior to 2006 was simply to try to survive - on minimal crowds and finances with the club budgeting a loss recouped via the odd cup run or transfer fee. To be fair to David Kilpatrick he and Graham Morris had inherited an absolute s**theap and spent their tenure saving the club. Without them (and others) there would be no RAFC today.
Dunphy's approach was initially slightly different - he desired to push for promotion - but he key ethos (from a supporter's view) is sustainability. We want to have a go at success, but we do not bet the ranch in doing so.
Dunphy got lucky with the appointment of Hill in so far as getting him into our academy as its leader under Steve Parkin was part of where we are now. Dunphy did have to move when Hill left for Barnsley but was quick to reappoint.
Dunphy has only appointed 4 permanent managers in 11 years - two of them Keith Hill. The period in between Hill leaving and rejoining is best forgotten. That gives Dunphy a 50% success rate - similar to a lot of Chairman.
Once promoted from League 2, our model has been academy focussed and the aim was to buy our ground back - and that has worked. We now have enough money to have our own ground, our focus in on attracting the next generation and we have used the "broken toy" philosophy to profit. The sell ons from Dawson, Hogan and others have all been reinvested.
That board strategy, because of its success is now copied far and wide and there is an argument to say we need to adapt - having one of the best academies outside of the Premier League is showing that competing is possible without masses of money/debt but you do need to keep unearthing those gems.
Alternatively our next step would be to go down the Burton/Peterborough route and start to buy a number players from the lower leagues with the sole aim of development and sale within 36 months of signing them. Peterborough have this model working well and generally sign 12 players a year with the aim of selling 1 or 2 for big sums.
It's worked for Peterborough with players like Dwight Gayle, Connor Washington, Jonathan Edwards and Burton are starting to replicate that model with their most recent sales.
For us, it is a bit of a risk at present IMO. We have not got the money to compete on transfer fees nor the mercenary nature to know that in signing a player on a three year contract we aim to sell him in 12-18 months as Peterborough did with Gayle and Washington.
We are built around consistency and giving people a chance - something that we are proud of but that's the logical next step.
All of this is secondary to the way Keith Hill sets us up, our lack of luck with injuries and a generally more scrutinous appraisal when we are doing badly rather than doing well.
We will have peaks and troughs on and off the field, but he has built this club into a model of consistency that makes us a credible league club for the long term and you will find a lot of Rochdale fans with memories of when that may not have been the case. |  |
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| Strikers and KH on 11:12 - Nov 23 with 2121 views | MarpleAlty |
| Strikers and KH on 10:51 - Nov 23 by RAFCBLUE |
You make a really interesting point about the business model.
For me, that sits with the board of the directors, led by the Chairman and implemented by club employees.
Our model has shifted dramatically since 2006 when the previous Chairman (David Kilpatrick) handed over to current Chariman, Chris Dunphy.
Our model prior to 2006 was simply to try to survive - on minimal crowds and finances with the club budgeting a loss recouped via the odd cup run or transfer fee. To be fair to David Kilpatrick he and Graham Morris had inherited an absolute s**theap and spent their tenure saving the club. Without them (and others) there would be no RAFC today.
Dunphy's approach was initially slightly different - he desired to push for promotion - but he key ethos (from a supporter's view) is sustainability. We want to have a go at success, but we do not bet the ranch in doing so.
Dunphy got lucky with the appointment of Hill in so far as getting him into our academy as its leader under Steve Parkin was part of where we are now. Dunphy did have to move when Hill left for Barnsley but was quick to reappoint.
Dunphy has only appointed 4 permanent managers in 11 years - two of them Keith Hill. The period in between Hill leaving and rejoining is best forgotten. That gives Dunphy a 50% success rate - similar to a lot of Chairman.
Once promoted from League 2, our model has been academy focussed and the aim was to buy our ground back - and that has worked. We now have enough money to have our own ground, our focus in on attracting the next generation and we have used the "broken toy" philosophy to profit. The sell ons from Dawson, Hogan and others have all been reinvested.
That board strategy, because of its success is now copied far and wide and there is an argument to say we need to adapt - having one of the best academies outside of the Premier League is showing that competing is possible without masses of money/debt but you do need to keep unearthing those gems.
Alternatively our next step would be to go down the Burton/Peterborough route and start to buy a number players from the lower leagues with the sole aim of development and sale within 36 months of signing them. Peterborough have this model working well and generally sign 12 players a year with the aim of selling 1 or 2 for big sums.
It's worked for Peterborough with players like Dwight Gayle, Connor Washington, Jonathan Edwards and Burton are starting to replicate that model with their most recent sales.
For us, it is a bit of a risk at present IMO. We have not got the money to compete on transfer fees nor the mercenary nature to know that in signing a player on a three year contract we aim to sell him in 12-18 months as Peterborough did with Gayle and Washington.
We are built around consistency and giving people a chance - something that we are proud of but that's the logical next step.
All of this is secondary to the way Keith Hill sets us up, our lack of luck with injuries and a generally more scrutinous appraisal when we are doing badly rather than doing well.
We will have peaks and troughs on and off the field, but he has built this club into a model of consistency that makes us a credible league club for the long term and you will find a lot of Rochdale fans with memories of when that may not have been the case. |
Thanks for your thoughts - you're right it's impossible simply to lurch from one strategy to another - and you certainly wouldn't want to be doing what Bury are doing.
The other thing is confidence in the loan market which I know has been mentioned before - it seems a while since Dale put that to good use, and I know Hilly isn't a fan of using it whatsoever unless it's an emergency.
At Alty we've found out all too well what happens when you stand still whilst others around you invest in their infrastructure, their recruiting models etc - two years ago we were beating Barnsley in the FA Cup, now we're playing league fixtures with the likes of Coalville and Barwell. | | | |
| Strikers and KH on 11:22 - Nov 23 with 2108 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Strikers and KH on 11:12 - Nov 23 by MarpleAlty |
Thanks for your thoughts - you're right it's impossible simply to lurch from one strategy to another - and you certainly wouldn't want to be doing what Bury are doing.
The other thing is confidence in the loan market which I know has been mentioned before - it seems a while since Dale put that to good use, and I know Hilly isn't a fan of using it whatsoever unless it's an emergency.
At Alty we've found out all too well what happens when you stand still whilst others around you invest in their infrastructure, their recruiting models etc - two years ago we were beating Barnsley in the FA Cup, now we're playing league fixtures with the likes of Coalville and Barwell. |
My view on the loan market use is that we used it as well as anyone else and then when the loopholes were shut we suffered like anyone else.
There were a few teams (e.g. Hereford in 2007-08) who learned how to game the system by taking 2 or 3 players from bigger clubs but without them the following season they struggled.
The fact you now need to have the deals done in the August transfer window means that clubs like ours suffer - we are not a Wigan or Blackburn who will be a first port of call for a North West club wanting its youth to play League 1 football on loan.
But we do keep investing and I think as long as Dunphy and Hill are here they will continue to do that well. Our problem is like most other clubs, people remember the harvest rather than the planting stage and then want that same harvest year after year. | |
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| Strikers and KH on 12:44 - Nov 23 with 2019 views | aleanddale |
this could work out well but we need some fresh blood as well IMHO in the January window.
there is a place here for Calvin but he needs the other 10 jigsaw pieces to fit perfectly.
at the moment its like we are missing 3 of the 4 corners!! | | | |
| Strikers and KH on 12:48 - Nov 23 with 2010 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| Strikers and KH on 12:44 - Nov 23 by aleanddale |
this could work out well but we need some fresh blood as well IMHO in the January window.
there is a place here for Calvin but he needs the other 10 jigsaw pieces to fit perfectly.
at the moment its like we are missing 3 of the 4 corners!! |
Apologies but am I reading you right? Are you suggesting we build a team around him? | |
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