| Thatcher dead 12:56 - Apr 8 with 92578 views | six_foot_two |
Skynews are are saying Magaret Thatcher has died of a stroke |  | | |  |
| Thatcher dead on 13:25 - Apr 12 with 2156 views | Hunterhoop |
Again, you're failing to read properly.
It's fine to close exhausted mines, as explained by Nadera, when there's other big mines to go to work for AND other job opportunities in other sectors. I don't see a problem there. There was no coal to mine anymore in them and there were other jobs for the workers to go to. It's common sense. That's why there wasn't an outcry.
Shutting most of the remaining mines, when there weren't other mines to go to and there weren't other jobs available, but when these mines still had plenty of coal to mine, is very different!!
Surely anyone with half a brain can see that.
You originally were making the point it was unfair/odd that miners didn't have a gripe with Wilson, but did with Thatcher. The above explains that.
And the wider issue of state support for struggling sectors, whether they be transport, coal, financial, etc, is a bigger, wider ideological point.
I haven't got a problem with you believing it's wrong. Providing you accept that if it's wrong for one sector, it's wrong for all. Because that's logic. Tbh i think you did say earlier you don't support it at all for anything. Fine, if that's true.
It's a very very economically right wing stance to take though.
And economically, I think it hampers economic growth not enhances it, as you make out.
Consumer spending is crucial to economic growth. What Thatcher did with the mines, whilst easing the pressure on the Treasury purse strings to support the industry, meant higher unemployment than would have been the case. This in turn means reduced consumer spending and greater pressure on the welfare state.
It is simply not possible to say categorically, as you do, that her approach was for the good of the economy. There is widespread disagreement from economists on this approach. In fact, Osborn's austerity measures (which in principle are the same - reduce state expenditure - at the risk of unemployment) are being criticised the world over for being responsible for limiting consumer expenditure growing, in turn allowing business to grow, re-invest, grow more, etc.
But hey, that's a bigger political discussion.
|  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 13:25 - Apr 12 with 2154 views | R_from_afar |
| Thatcher dead on 14:50 - Apr 11 by simmo |
There better be this many pages after Clint Hill scores. |
There you go again, talking about football on a political forum. 
Oh....
RFA
PS: It would be fitting if he got his goal against Liverpool, keeping us up in the process. Fitting, but not very likely. |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
| |
| Thatcher dead on 13:29 - Apr 12 with 2147 views | R_from_afar |
| Thatcher dead on 18:55 - Apr 11 by runningman75 |
People keep saying how great Thatcher made the country when her own children do not live here! |
Mark is considerably more intelligent than his mother. Rather than wasting time climbing up the political ladder like she did, he cut to the chase and masterminded a coup.
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
| |
| Thatcher dead on 13:35 - Apr 12 with 2120 views | SpiritofGregory |
| Thatcher dead on 11:46 - Apr 12 by Juzzie |
Germany don't have the same high housing prices we have because there's no demand to buy. Renting is normal, there's no "a Germans castle is his home" mentality out there. I think I explained this early on this thread too.
The rapid rise in housing prices in the UK were primarliy demand-driven. Other factors have now come into it but this thread is about then, not now. Too many people keep going on about Brown & Blair (who are both schisters for the record, but not relevant to a Maggie Thatcher thread talking about the 80's)
There's less demand in Germany = realistic prices. They think we're bonkers paying the prices that we do.
|
In Germany they had a more responsible policy in relation to home ownership eg they didn't allow financial institutions to lend 5/6 times your salary which is what happen during Labour in the 90s and sent the housing market spiraling out of control.
Germany is also a bigger country, ours is a more highly densely populated country which not only has an impact on housing, it impacts the price of land. In relation to over inflated property prices, we don't have over inflated property prices in the UK, we have over inflated ownership and rental rates in the South East of England in particular London. There isn't a lack of social housing and their aren't long waiting lists up north.
In Germany the population don't have that overwhelming desire to live in a certain part of the country. The money offered from others to rebuild their country at the end of the war was used sensibly, not wasted and together with sound economic policy and the majority pulling in the same direction, resulted in strong industry and the delivery of quality goods. Meanwhile at British Leyland shop stewards were calling strikes if the vending machine was empty.
Berlin, Hamburg, Munich etc are all desirable cities to live in and are situated in different parts of the country therefore wealth and population is distributed dispelling high prices, brought about by high demand and lack of supply of housing, in a particular area. This also has a positive knock on effect on the rental market in that it keeps rents low and allows people to remain in their rented accommodation for a longer period of time so the need to own, isn't high up on a person's agenda. |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 13:36 - Apr 12 with 2135 views | BlackCrowe |
30 pages. 
All very well everyone ranting about her but should not be forgotten that it was the public that democratically voted her into power on three consecutive occasions. |  |
| |
| Thatcher dead on 13:40 - Apr 12 with 2123 views | R_from_afar |
| Thatcher dead on 08:51 - Apr 12 by TheBlob |
Cheers for that.But then you know it's all a scam if she's endorsing it eh?The wily old cow recognised there was a fortune to be made from Global Warming.
|
Which are more likely to be involved in a scam: The people agreeing with the scientific consensus, i.e that GW is man-made, or those that aren't?
Are Michael Mann and James Hansen billionaire businessmen? Nope, they are scientists.
Man-made global warming comes down to a simple fact of chemistry, known since the 18th century: CO2 is a greenhouse gas.
We are pumping out billions of tons of it (up 26% last year). Therefore....
And before anyone mentions solar cycles, we are coming out of a solar minimum.
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
| |
| Thatcher dead on 13:42 - Apr 12 with 2123 views | QPR_John |
| Thatcher dead on 09:09 - Apr 12 by BrianMcCarthy |
John and Pom,
I'll try. Isn't a basic tenet of taxation that it be equitable, and that it therefore be structured based on the relative ability to pay?
VAT and the Poll Tax were charged with being inherently inequitable as they are/were aimed at disposable income, in their cases weekly shopping and rent/mortgages. As those with lower incomes spend a greater amount of their disposable incomes than those with higher incomes, this hits them not just equally but harder.
On the other end of the scale is inheritance tax, which is clearly a tax on wealth and nothing else.
In between is what's held by most economists I've read as the most equitable tax of all - income tax.
|
Been out and have not had time to reply. This is an interesting argument and I see where you are coming from as I had not looked at it that way but what I find striking is that you use the same argument against VAT as you do the Poll Tax and you are right to do so. You could argue that VAT, using your criteria, is a more Iniquitous tax than the Poll tax, I think you would pay more through the former than the latter. There were no riots over the introduction of VAT and we quite happily lived with its predecessor purchase tax. Makes we wonder if the Poll tax riots were more political than altruistic [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
|  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 13:45 - Apr 12 with 2115 views | FDC |
| Thatcher dead on 11:24 - Apr 12 by TacticalR |
Most people have made thoughtful contributions to the thread (on both sides), and most have tried to offer some kind of analysis. It's shame a few such as Clive_Anderson have sought to reduce the level of the discussion with the most crude whitewashing of the past, the most blithe detachment from contemporary reality, the most servile defence of power, and all delivered in the tone of the most smug sermon of a country parson. |
Well said, he's the most exasperating poster I've ever come across on any message board any where. |  | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Thatcher dead on 13:47 - Apr 12 with 2109 views | R_from_afar |
| Thatcher dead on 13:25 - Apr 12 by Hunterhoop |
Again, you're failing to read properly.
It's fine to close exhausted mines, as explained by Nadera, when there's other big mines to go to work for AND other job opportunities in other sectors. I don't see a problem there. There was no coal to mine anymore in them and there were other jobs for the workers to go to. It's common sense. That's why there wasn't an outcry.
Shutting most of the remaining mines, when there weren't other mines to go to and there weren't other jobs available, but when these mines still had plenty of coal to mine, is very different!!
Surely anyone with half a brain can see that.
You originally were making the point it was unfair/odd that miners didn't have a gripe with Wilson, but did with Thatcher. The above explains that.
And the wider issue of state support for struggling sectors, whether they be transport, coal, financial, etc, is a bigger, wider ideological point.
I haven't got a problem with you believing it's wrong. Providing you accept that if it's wrong for one sector, it's wrong for all. Because that's logic. Tbh i think you did say earlier you don't support it at all for anything. Fine, if that's true.
It's a very very economically right wing stance to take though.
And economically, I think it hampers economic growth not enhances it, as you make out.
Consumer spending is crucial to economic growth. What Thatcher did with the mines, whilst easing the pressure on the Treasury purse strings to support the industry, meant higher unemployment than would have been the case. This in turn means reduced consumer spending and greater pressure on the welfare state.
It is simply not possible to say categorically, as you do, that her approach was for the good of the economy. There is widespread disagreement from economists on this approach. In fact, Osborn's austerity measures (which in principle are the same - reduce state expenditure - at the risk of unemployment) are being criticised the world over for being responsible for limiting consumer expenditure growing, in turn allowing business to grow, re-invest, grow more, etc.
But hey, that's a bigger political discussion.
|
Compare and contrast Thatcher's mine closure "programme" with that of Germany, where the mines were phased out in a sympathetic (to the workers) way, over years.
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
| |
| Thatcher dead on 13:47 - Apr 12 with 2108 views | NW5Hoop |
| Thatcher dead on 13:40 - Apr 12 by R_from_afar |
Which are more likely to be involved in a scam: The people agreeing with the scientific consensus, i.e that GW is man-made, or those that aren't?
Are Michael Mann and James Hansen billionaire businessmen? Nope, they are scientists.
Man-made global warming comes down to a simple fact of chemistry, known since the 18th century: CO2 is a greenhouse gas.
We are pumping out billions of tons of it (up 26% last year). Therefore....
And before anyone mentions solar cycles, we are coming out of a solar minimum.
RFA |
I'm always amazed that anyone argues that climate change has become a widely endorsed theory because of its financial clout.
Yep, those academics have got all the cash. Not like those poverty stricken fossil fuel companies. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 14:00 - Apr 12 with 2093 views | TacticalR |
So it doesn't matter if you come out with the most blatant falsehoods in defence of your heroine (in this case that she 'wasn't mates' with a murderous dictator), because that gives others the opportunity to go away and gather evidence which you can then pass further judgement upon?
Yes she was mates with Pinochet. His was the original monetarist experiment, ten years before Thatcher tried it in Britain.
Of course, as a dictator this didn't fit with the official line of Thatcher bringing democracy to the world. The supplying of cocaine to Europe for two decades was an embarrassment too (at least for those capable of embarrassment):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/dec/10/chile.pinochet |  |
| |
| Thatcher dead on 14:03 - Apr 12 with 2086 views | TheBlob |
| Thatcher dead on 13:40 - Apr 12 by R_from_afar |
Which are more likely to be involved in a scam: The people agreeing with the scientific consensus, i.e that GW is man-made, or those that aren't?
Are Michael Mann and James Hansen billionaire businessmen? Nope, they are scientists.
Man-made global warming comes down to a simple fact of chemistry, known since the 18th century: CO2 is a greenhouse gas.
We are pumping out billions of tons of it (up 26% last year). Therefore....
And before anyone mentions solar cycles, we are coming out of a solar minimum.
RFA |
You lot have changed your tunes.Not long ago there were arguments that the sun - and Solar Minima - didn't affect the climate.
Whatever,Thatch knew the investement potential of bullshit.Playing both sides against the middle produces a lot of wonga - if not hot air.
Look up Waste Heat also - energy from whatever source creates heat. |  |
| |
| Thatcher dead on 14:14 - Apr 12 with 2059 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Thatcher dead on 13:42 - Apr 12 by QPR_John |
Been out and have not had time to reply. This is an interesting argument and I see where you are coming from as I had not looked at it that way but what I find striking is that you use the same argument against VAT as you do the Poll Tax and you are right to do so. You could argue that VAT, using your criteria, is a more Iniquitous tax than the Poll tax, I think you would pay more through the former than the latter. There were no riots over the introduction of VAT and we quite happily lived with its predecessor purchase tax. Makes we wonder if the Poll tax riots were more political than altruistic [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
|
I agree that VAT is the most iniquitous tax of them all, and how it's come to be politically and socially acceptable is beyond me, but it has.
Ya, I'd imagine there were plenty of the poll tax rioters who's motives were political alright. But it was a bad, bad tax and most of the demonstrators were peaceful. Sometimes we have views that are shared by both fools and princes, but our views are personal and care not what company they keep. |  |
| |
| Thatcher dead on 14:26 - Apr 12 with 2046 views | TacticalR |
You've missed the point (a great skill of yours by the way).
You were trying to deflect attention from Thatcher's personal friendship with the dictator by implying that Thatcher was only furthering British interests (and even if that were true her embrace of the dictator would not have been justified).
Their friendship is a matter of record, as are his annual visits to her house. Monetarism was their shared economic philosophy, and a key reason for their close relationship. | |
| |
| Thatcher dead on 15:07 - Apr 12 with 2009 views | Hunterhoop |
This is getting silly.
OF COURSE THE NUMBER OF MINES BEING CLOSED EACH YEAR REDUCES. IT'S BECAUSE THE NUMBER OF MINES IN EXISTENCE IS LESS.
The number isn't important. What's important is what % of the number of mines in existence closed each year. So 250 out of say 5,000 is bound not to have as big an impact as say 200 our of say 2,500.
And the absolutely key point, that Nadera and I have been trying to explain, is that there comes a tipping point in the closure of mines where the following happens:
- There are not enough other existing mines for those miners to go and work at
- Wider society can't employ them elsewhere due to a scarcity of jobs (and all previously appropriate jobs for ex-miners already having ex-miners in them already!)
You don't need numbers, data or anything else to understand this. It's logical, common sense.
This tipping point happened under Thatcher. And not only ignore this, she failed to provide any support to them and showed absolutely no care or compassion for their plight. That's why miners hate her.
And it was all simply to save the state money. Which, as we've discussed cannot be said to have saved more money over the decades than having those miners employed, paying taxes and contributing to greater consumer spending as well as set against the cost of importing coal. It's a ideological action not an economical one. Thatcher believed that industry should be able to stand on its own two feet and if it couldn't it didn't deserve to survive. IMO, this is an incredibly short sighted approach to economics. I think her approach to the wider manufacturing industry has been a complete failure and is signigicantly hampering us escape this recession (caused, in the long run, by her deregulation of the banks, incidently).
Effectively, we're saying that in the 60s, 70s and 80s it was necessary to "right-size" the mining industry to limit state expenditure supporting the industry whilst ensuring enough jobs were still provided so as to prevent mass unemployment.
The belief of miners is Thatcher went too far putting the "limiting of state expenditure" above all else.
Surely you can comprehend this position, whether you agree with it or not?! | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 15:27 - Apr 12 with 1989 views | Cliff |
Firstly don't go yet, I still want to pick holes in some of your arguments, especially your spurious use of graphs and data to illustrate your points 
I've been a bit busy today at work so haven't had any time to join in the debate but I will try and catch up.
For me the Pinochet / Thatcher friends or not debate is besides the point. Everyone with half a brain cell knew he was a wrong 'un, yet Thatcher defended him at every opportunity and as every one knows was instrumental in getting him freed when faced with extradition in this country. The question is not just why did she, but should she have.
The answer to why is generally accepted as being because he provided help in the Falklands conflict, the question I want answered is why? Dictators are not generally known for their altruism, so I can only assume he got something out of the arrangement, most likely the weakening of a powerful militaristic neighbor. I doubt in was in the hope that decades later he would be let off an extradition order.
For me no matter how much good you do in the world, help others etc, if you do evil or commit crimes then you should be brought to justice. No one on this board is suggesting that Jimmy Saville should be forgiven his crimes because of his charity work, and by the same token Pinochet should have been extradited to answer for his crimes, and Thatcher had no right to get him freed. She should instead have let him face the charges, and if she wanted to, appeared on his behalf as a defense witness. |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 15:47 - Apr 12 with 1957 views | Cliff |
Still catching up!
There is a debate about why previous mine closures weren't resented as much as the one's Thatcher closed, perhaps this graph might say something about it
which shows the effect on unemployment. All of this was when we still need coal to generate electricity and run our industries.
Remember she didn't she didn't shut our coal fired electricity generators, and we even now have to import over 40 Million tonnes of coal a year to meet our needs.
| | | |
| Thatcher dead on 15:47 - Apr 12 with 1957 views | simmo |
Can we close this off pretty soon? Not that I dont enjoy a well balanced debate, but think of the poor guy that has to moderate this shite. No interest in the conent but reading through every post just in case....
She was a prick
She was great
She was better than some, worse than others
I am indifferent
Pick one.
Talk about something else. |  |
| ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead |
| |
| Thatcher dead on 16:22 - Apr 12 with 1933 views | Cliff |
You say the poor wages did go up faster than inflation and then produce a graph as evidence that has no data regarding inflation 
The only thing that this graph shows is the lowest 10 of earners (both male and female) had very poor rises in the Thatcher years as shown by the bottom most two graphs which are almost flat, the not much better pay rises of the median earners (the middle two graphs), and the much steeper rises for the highest paid.
As best as I can read from this graph, in 1979 the poorest women wee paid about £175 a week and the men about £210-220. By 1990 these appear to have risen to about £200 and £250 respectively, or about 14% for women and 14 - 19% for men over 10 years.
if you are saying that there figures are above the rate of inflation then you are saying that inflation was below 1.9% consistently over the 10 years of Thatchers rule! | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 17:14 - Apr 12 with 1903 views | MrSheen |
| Thatcher dead on 16:22 - Apr 12 by Cliff |
You say the poor wages did go up faster than inflation and then produce a graph as evidence that has no data regarding inflation
The only thing that this graph shows is the lowest 10 of earners (both male and female) had very poor rises in the Thatcher years as shown by the bottom most two graphs which are almost flat, the not much better pay rises of the median earners (the middle two graphs), and the much steeper rises for the highest paid.
As best as I can read from this graph, in 1979 the poorest women wee paid about £175 a week and the men about £210-220. By 1990 these appear to have risen to about £200 and £250 respectively, or about 14% for women and 14 - 19% for men over 10 years.
if you are saying that there figures are above the rate of inflation then you are saying that inflation was below 1.9% consistently over the 10 years of Thatchers rule! |
These figures ARE inflation adjusted. It says "2008 prices" in the legend. I won't bother with the emoticon. |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 17:46 - Apr 12 with 1880 views | TheBlob |
What's with the graphs?
Can someone put up a graph to show how f*cking tedious threads like these become?
| |
| |
| Thatcher dead on 17:51 - Apr 12 with 2097 views | Cliff |
| Thatcher dead on 17:14 - Apr 12 by MrSheen |
These figures ARE inflation adjusted. It says "2008 prices" in the legend. I won't bother with the emoticon. |
You're right I didn't see that, but I guess that simple pay rates don't cover the whole story as I'm don't know which measure of inflation was used.
<iframe src="//charts-datawrapper.s3.amazonaws.com/EWoNF/index.html" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen oallowfullscreen msallowfullscreen width="460" height="500"></iframe>
This is the statistic some might feel is more relevant is this one
EDIT: oops that didn't embed as promised please look at the bottom two graphs in
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/datablog/2013/apr/08/britain-changed-margaret
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
| | | |
| Thatcher dead on 18:30 - Apr 12 with 2054 views | Juzzie |
| Thatcher dead on 17:46 - Apr 12 by TheBlob |
What's with the graphs?
Can someone put up a graph to show how f*cking tedious threads like these become?
|
|  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 19:15 - Apr 12 with 2031 views | michael67 |
Is there going to be a separate thread for the Trafalgar Square Thatcher Death Party tomorrow, or does it just continue here?
By the way, for all those who wishes to dance on her grave, I've bad news for you. She is being cremated. Looks like she is for burning. |  |
| |
| Thatcher dead on 19:56 - Apr 12 with 2014 views | A40Bosh |
| Thatcher dead on 19:15 - Apr 12 by michael67 |
Is there going to be a separate thread for the Trafalgar Square Thatcher Death Party tomorrow, or does it just continue here?
By the way, for all those who wishes to dance on her grave, I've bad news for you. She is being cremated. Looks like she is for burning. |
Lets get it to a 1000 and then close it off! |  |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
