| General election looming? 19:49 - Oct 22 with 23349 views | Daley_Lama |
Who would people vote in in Rochdale?
Lab? A bloke who has voted against every single attempt to deliver Brexit?
Lib: A bloke or woman who would do the same?
Tory? In Rochdale?
I reckon this town could actually vote in a Farage candidate if a general election was called. |  |
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| General election looming? on 13:46 - Oct 23 with 2113 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 13:32 - Oct 23 by Sandyman |
It is also about the right to retain your individual beliefs whatever the political landscape is.
Remain voter.
Don't know voter in the next General Election. |
There's a whole host of attributes as to what defines democracy, but surely a legally held referendum with a clearly worded either/or choice that had cross-party agreement to implement the outcome, should surely be delivered by those elected and representing us in Parliament? |  |
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| General election looming? on 13:52 - Oct 23 with 2091 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 13:46 - Oct 23 by Brierls |
You obviously missed the 
Brexit is a complete sh!t show. When you have the Remain campaign dealing with facts which are available in the public domain vs the Leave campaign allowed to peddle benefits that are fantasy at best, I'm not sure you can have a genuine chance of making an informed decision.
I don't doubt there are Leave voters who saw through the fantasy claims and still saw a reason to leave, but I find it very hard to believe that a lot of Leave voters weren't voting on the basis of fantasy claims peddled and/or are daft racists with a skewed view of European workers stealing British jobs etc.
The voting process was democratic. Everything leading up to it, and what's gone after, is a sick joke. For once, I don't blame MP's, they don't want their name against implementing Brexit. They should be applauded for protecting the interests of the UK.
If Labour had the balls to take the LibDem stance, or even have a second referendum as part of their manifesto, they'd be an absolute shoe in at the next (pre-Brexit) referendum. All under the banner of being democratically elected. |
Why a second referendum?
It will not fully represent the electorate that voted in the first and will be added to by those who could not vote through age.
In 2016 MPs were mandated to deliver the exit of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland from the EU. Their party leaders agreed to implement the result of the referendum. They haven't.
Do they do skip hire? | |
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| General election looming? on 13:57 - Oct 23 with 2076 views | D_Alien |
| General election looming? on 13:46 - Oct 23 by judd |
There's a whole host of attributes as to what defines democracy, but surely a legally held referendum with a clearly worded either/or choice that had cross-party agreement to implement the outcome, should surely be delivered by those elected and representing us in Parliament? |
Indeed. And in the democratic event of the 2017 general election, all three main political parties campaigned on manifestoes which included implementing the result of the referendum, after their overwhelming endorsement of it in implementing Article 50
What has happened subsequently is the greatest political scandal in modern British history. It's still not too late for it to be put right (it must be, and i believe it will), but the betrayal of the democratic mandate by those who seek to stop it won't be forgotten |  |
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| General election looming? on 14:06 - Oct 23 with 2067 views | dalenumber2 |
| General election looming? on 13:52 - Oct 23 by judd |
Why a second referendum?
It will not fully represent the electorate that voted in the first and will be added to by those who could not vote through age.
In 2016 MPs were mandated to deliver the exit of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland from the EU. Their party leaders agreed to implement the result of the referendum. They haven't.
Do they do skip hire? |
People are entitled to and will change their minds, that's why we have general elections every few years. As the original referendum was three years ago and due to the fact that we are now more informed, I think a second referendum is the only way forward. It is completely democratic to do this - we can vote the same or differently, and if we get a definite yes to a no deal, Boris' deal or remain then this would give a final verdict which will only be helpful in moving forward. |  | | |
| General election looming? on 14:13 - Oct 23 with 2057 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 14:06 - Oct 23 by dalenumber2 |
People are entitled to and will change their minds, that's why we have general elections every few years. As the original referendum was three years ago and due to the fact that we are now more informed, I think a second referendum is the only way forward. It is completely democratic to do this - we can vote the same or differently, and if we get a definite yes to a no deal, Boris' deal or remain then this would give a final verdict which will only be helpful in moving forward. |
That's one way of looking at it, but the cynic in me can only think that it will be referendum after referendum until "we" get the result that "we" want.
I would also suggest that a second referendum would be worded differently and not be so easy to understand as the original leave/remain as the only two options.
It is perhaps wholly undemocratic to go down this route. | |
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| General election looming? on 14:49 - Oct 23 with 2028 views | James1980 |
A friend, who is firmly in favour of a hard Brexit. Said that the 'easiest deal in history, we can be like Switzerland and Norway' etc comments. Were necessary lies to get the leave vote through. I think he could be right and that is enough reason for me to support a 2nd referendum. |  |
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| General election looming? on 14:56 - Oct 23 with 2013 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 14:49 - Oct 23 by James1980 |
A friend, who is firmly in favour of a hard Brexit. Said that the 'easiest deal in history, we can be like Switzerland and Norway' etc comments. Were necessary lies to get the leave vote through. I think he could be right and that is enough reason for me to support a 2nd referendum. |
But we are like Switzerland and Norway in that we never win Euro fookin vision!
I think it a little naïve to look to have a second referendum on the basis of incorrect claims making people's minds up, otherwise every single general election could be similarly disputed.
I didn't like losing on penalties to Manu but accept it as the result. Move on. | |
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| General election looming? on 14:59 - Oct 23 with 2006 views | James1980 |
| General election looming? on 14:56 - Oct 23 by judd |
But we are like Switzerland and Norway in that we never win Euro fookin vision!
I think it a little naïve to look to have a second referendum on the basis of incorrect claims making people's minds up, otherwise every single general election could be similarly disputed.
I didn't like losing on penalties to Manu but accept it as the result. Move on. |
But we can have a general election at least every 5 years. | |
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| General election looming? on 15:01 - Oct 23 with 1996 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 14:59 - Oct 23 by James1980 |
But we can have a general election at least every 5 years. |
That's hardly the point. | |
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| General election looming? on 15:26 - Oct 23 with 1974 views | James1980 |
| General election looming? on 15:01 - Oct 23 by judd |
That's hardly the point. |
On the subject of a general election itself. I doubt Johnson will quite get the majority he needs. However, The Nigel Party will probably get sufficient seats to form a coalition with the tories, enabling the latter to sack of the DUP. | |
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| General election looming? on 15:36 - Oct 23 with 1956 views | D_Alien |
| General election looming? on 15:26 - Oct 23 by James1980 |
On the subject of a general election itself. I doubt Johnson will quite get the majority he needs. However, The Nigel Party will probably get sufficient seats to form a coalition with the tories, enabling the latter to sack of the DUP. |
If the Brexit deal has passed through parliament before the election, the Brexit party might as well not bother since their sole aim will have been accomplished. They might disagree about that, but the electorate won't want to re-open the issue once its been settled
If the deal hasn't yet been ratified by parliament, its anyone's guess what might happen, including another hung parliament. Constituencies which voted either Leave or Remain (or were split down the middle) could have their votes split between rival parties with the same agenda and end up with the result they least wanted
The deal must be passed into law. If it isn't, we're in far more serious trouble than any temporary economic challenges whilst new trade deals are negotiated; there are much greater principles at stake here - the very foundations of how we govern ourselves. Whatever happens, things have changed irrevocably, but perhaps they needed to | |
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| General election looming? on 15:40 - Oct 23 with 1946 views | DaleFan7 |
Unless the options are different i.e. they put no deal, deal or remain on the ballot paper, which leave couldn't win as it would split their vote. I can't see the referendum result being turned around. I think people would be more determined to see us leave than they were in 2016 given the messing about over the last 3 years. | | | |
| General election looming? on 15:40 - Oct 23 with 1943 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 15:26 - Oct 23 by James1980 |
On the subject of a general election itself. I doubt Johnson will quite get the majority he needs. However, The Nigel Party will probably get sufficient seats to form a coalition with the tories, enabling the latter to sack of the DUP. |
It is impossible to call.
I doubt Farage would support a government unless it was wholly committed to leaving the EU without an agreement, an agreement he sees as a treaty with Europe.
How many people would vote for the Brexit party, such that it secured sufficient seats to hold sway?
I think Labour could be severely damaged, particularly by the LibDems, which I would welcome.
Johnson would need to be absolutely clear in the message he gives in his manifesto, e.g. is it "let's get Brexit done" or is it "let's caveat Brexit to death in getting it done", or is it "vote for us and we'll call another vote"? | |
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| General election looming? on 15:41 - Oct 23 with 1944 views | Scunnydale |
| General election looming? on 15:36 - Oct 23 by D_Alien |
If the Brexit deal has passed through parliament before the election, the Brexit party might as well not bother since their sole aim will have been accomplished. They might disagree about that, but the electorate won't want to re-open the issue once its been settled
If the deal hasn't yet been ratified by parliament, its anyone's guess what might happen, including another hung parliament. Constituencies which voted either Leave or Remain (or were split down the middle) could have their votes split between rival parties with the same agenda and end up with the result they least wanted
The deal must be passed into law. If it isn't, we're in far more serious trouble than any temporary economic challenges whilst new trade deals are negotiated; there are much greater principles at stake here - the very foundations of how we govern ourselves. Whatever happens, things have changed irrevocably, but perhaps they needed to |
Regarding your first paragraph. Is that why Farage now supports an extension?
Although, I'd much prefer him to be supporting an extension in a more Brookside manner. This, of course, is a joke. |  | | |
| General election looming? on 15:44 - Oct 23 with 1927 views | D_Alien |
| General election looming? on 15:41 - Oct 23 by Scunnydale |
Regarding your first paragraph. Is that why Farage now supports an extension?
Although, I'd much prefer him to be supporting an extension in a more Brookside manner. This, of course, is a joke. |
I did mention about the foundations of how we're governed being at stake... with Farage as underpinning!
God knows what his rationale is - he's all over the place now, having once been seen as at least having focus on the specifics
[Post edited 23 Oct 2019 15:46]
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| General election looming? on 15:48 - Oct 23 with 1913 views | DaleFan7 |
| General election looming? on 15:40 - Oct 23 by judd |
It is impossible to call.
I doubt Farage would support a government unless it was wholly committed to leaving the EU without an agreement, an agreement he sees as a treaty with Europe.
How many people would vote for the Brexit party, such that it secured sufficient seats to hold sway?
I think Labour could be severely damaged, particularly by the LibDems, which I would welcome.
Johnson would need to be absolutely clear in the message he gives in his manifesto, e.g. is it "let's get Brexit done" or is it "let's caveat Brexit to death in getting it done", or is it "vote for us and we'll call another vote"? |
I think Labour have already crippled themselves by sitting on the fence and then finally falling on the side of having a second referendum.
61% of Labour's constituencies voted to leave. Whilst 68% of Labour voters voted to remain it isn't purely numbers that get you through it's the way the voting system works. I can see them losing a lot of votes, especially in the far north of England to the Brexit Party affecting their number of MPs more than if they gain some votes in places like London. Even if the election is post 'Brexit'. | | | |
| General election looming? on 15:54 - Oct 23 with 1906 views | 49thseason |
| General election looming? on 14:49 - Oct 23 by James1980 |
A friend, who is firmly in favour of a hard Brexit. Said that the 'easiest deal in history, we can be like Switzerland and Norway' etc comments. Were necessary lies to get the leave vote through. I think he could be right and that is enough reason for me to support a 2nd referendum. |
It was the easiest deal in history until those who refused to accept the democratic decision of the country decided to wreck the process. (and I include May in this as she handed over the procedure for exit to the EU). If she had simply signed the A50 the day she was put in place as PM and refused to give the EU any other say other than for a free trade agreement at the end of the A50 process we would have been out months ago. She didn't want to leave, The MSM didn't want to leave, the inner London glitterati didn't want to leave and lots of politicians, past and present, with vested interests in the EU didn't want to leave and they all have conspired to prevent it with their continually biased TV programming, subversive visits to see Barnier and their EU pensions, investments and sinecures.
At heart, there are large numbers of people who simply cannot accept that my vote counts the same as their vote, they assume I am somehow inferior because I don't speak as they do, don't have a bank balance like they have or support their globalist view of the world. But, they ignore a very basic principle at their peril.... I was given a vote to persuade me not to pick up rocks, if my vote no longer counts then picking up rocks becomes my default position.
There is much more at stake now than membership of a wannabe political Empire. Democracy itself has been jeopardised by those who think they can tell me what is good for me and force me to accept what they claim are their superior ideologies. I don't accept them unless they can beat my ideas at an honestly conducted ballot box vote. That they do not accept the decision already made at the ballot box makes them unworthy of their positions and turns democracy into tyranny.
17.4m people decided they wanted to leave, over a million more than those who wanted to remain, a 4% majority or thereabouts. In our democracy, one vote would have been enough. A 4 % majority in Parliament would be 25 or 26 votes, don't tell me that Corbyn or Swinson would not form a government with a 4% majority but would demand a re-run because it was too close!
So far, the 17.4 million have trusted the process and still expect Parliament to enact their decision. I don't know what might happen if there is an attempt to ignore their decision or make them vote again without first implementing the original decision. I suspect it may not be pretty.
I note that all police leave nationally has been cancelled from the 31st of October.... |  | | |
| General election looming? on 16:10 - Oct 23 with 1888 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 15:54 - Oct 23 by 49thseason |
It was the easiest deal in history until those who refused to accept the democratic decision of the country decided to wreck the process. (and I include May in this as she handed over the procedure for exit to the EU). If she had simply signed the A50 the day she was put in place as PM and refused to give the EU any other say other than for a free trade agreement at the end of the A50 process we would have been out months ago. She didn't want to leave, The MSM didn't want to leave, the inner London glitterati didn't want to leave and lots of politicians, past and present, with vested interests in the EU didn't want to leave and they all have conspired to prevent it with their continually biased TV programming, subversive visits to see Barnier and their EU pensions, investments and sinecures.
At heart, there are large numbers of people who simply cannot accept that my vote counts the same as their vote, they assume I am somehow inferior because I don't speak as they do, don't have a bank balance like they have or support their globalist view of the world. But, they ignore a very basic principle at their peril.... I was given a vote to persuade me not to pick up rocks, if my vote no longer counts then picking up rocks becomes my default position.
There is much more at stake now than membership of a wannabe political Empire. Democracy itself has been jeopardised by those who think they can tell me what is good for me and force me to accept what they claim are their superior ideologies. I don't accept them unless they can beat my ideas at an honestly conducted ballot box vote. That they do not accept the decision already made at the ballot box makes them unworthy of their positions and turns democracy into tyranny.
17.4m people decided they wanted to leave, over a million more than those who wanted to remain, a 4% majority or thereabouts. In our democracy, one vote would have been enough. A 4 % majority in Parliament would be 25 or 26 votes, don't tell me that Corbyn or Swinson would not form a government with a 4% majority but would demand a re-run because it was too close!
So far, the 17.4 million have trusted the process and still expect Parliament to enact their decision. I don't know what might happen if there is an attempt to ignore their decision or make them vote again without first implementing the original decision. I suspect it may not be pretty.
I note that all police leave nationally has been cancelled from the 31st of October.... |
Excellent. | |
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| General election looming? on 16:37 - Oct 23 with 1850 views | fermin |
| General election looming? on 15:44 - Oct 23 by D_Alien |
I did mention about the foundations of how we're governed being at stake... with Farage as underpinning!
God knows what his rationale is - he's all over the place now, having once been seen as at least having focus on the specifics
[Post edited 23 Oct 2019 15:46]
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Here is an Austrian blog about Brexit, which is mostly in German but the last two long posts are in English, and the one on 19 October gives an opinion about Farage's views:
https://bachheimer.com/john-james
The later English one gives a view of the current state of play.
This is a conservative Eurosceptic website for those who avoid them on principle. |  | | |
| General election looming? on 16:45 - Oct 23 with 1840 views | wimborne_dale |
| General election looming? on 14:06 - Oct 23 by dalenumber2 |
People are entitled to and will change their minds, that's why we have general elections every few years. As the original referendum was three years ago and due to the fact that we are now more informed, I think a second referendum is the only way forward. It is completely democratic to do this - we can vote the same or differently, and if we get a definite yes to a no deal, Boris' deal or remain then this would give a final verdict which will only be helpful in moving forward. |
"People are entitled to and will change their minds".
How many times? If we changed our minds once, would be allowed to change back?
"that's why we have general elections every few years. " and every time, the result is implemented straight away.
"As the original referendum was three years ago and due to the fact that we are now more informed" - On any subject that we've looked at, we know more than we did before. Let's not set a damaging precedent that if Parliament delays a result it doesn't like for long enough, they don't have to implement it.
"I think a second referendum is the only way forward. It is completely democratic to do this -" Yes it is, AFTER the result of ref1 has been implemented.
"we can vote the same or differently, and if we get a definite yes to a no deal, Boris' deal or remain then this would give a final verdict which will only be helpful in moving forward." Given the track record of certain elements of the population, it is hard to imagine that any form of Brexit would be accepted as the final verdict. Another vote to leave would see the streets of London full of Remain protesters the next day. Nothing would have changed. |  |
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| General election looming? on 17:21 - Oct 23 with 1806 views | foreverhopefulDale |
| General election looming? on 15:26 - Oct 23 by James1980 |
On the subject of a general election itself. I doubt Johnson will quite get the majority he needs. However, The Nigel Party will probably get sufficient seats to form a coalition with the tories, enabling the latter to sack of the DUP. |
I bet Brexit won’t get any seats. |  |
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| General election looming? on 18:33 - Oct 23 with 1713 views | YadHoDale |
Labour. Not perfect, but far better than the others. Could maybe do with McDonnell as leader, rather than Corbyn.
Greens. Decent enough, but don't want to waste my vote on a protest.
Liberal. OK at a local level, but unelectable nationally while Swinson is the leader. She's a Tory in a yellow frock.
Tories. Lying, thieving, tax dodging scum, as they always have been.
Change UK - get in the sea.
Brexit/Ukiip - neo-nazi scum who belong on a gibbet. |  | | |
| General election looming? on 18:40 - Oct 23 with 1691 views | Brierls |
| General election looming? on 13:52 - Oct 23 by judd |
Why a second referendum?
It will not fully represent the electorate that voted in the first and will be added to by those who could not vote through age.
In 2016 MPs were mandated to deliver the exit of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland from the EU. Their party leaders agreed to implement the result of the referendum. They haven't.
Do they do skip hire? |
Why? Because the Leave campaign was built on lies. On balance there were a few exagerated, but more realistic, points from the Remain campaign too.
A large percentage of people voting Leave were voting based on propaganda.
No doubt I'll get shot down for this, but this article from the Independent summarise the misinformation pretty well...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/final-say-brexit-referendum-lies-
A linked article details the lies around additional NHS funding and Immigration figures, which were the cornerstone of the Leave campaign...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vote-leave-brexit-lies-eu-pay-mon
An A-Z on Brexit lies...
https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/list-of-brexit-lies
The attitude of "the country has spoken, it doesn't matter that they were mislead" is bonkers.
There are infinitely more facts available now and people have had no choice but to live through the Brexit debacle. People are better placed to make an informed decision, but admittedly will never be in possesion of all the facts.
That's why, G.
I very rarely get involved in political discussion, but Brexit boils my piss. I'm stepping away from this thread before my bladder explodes and I scald myself. |  | | |
| General election looming? on 18:48 - Oct 23 with 1674 views | YadHoDale |
| General election looming? on 18:40 - Oct 23 by Brierls |
Why? Because the Leave campaign was built on lies. On balance there were a few exagerated, but more realistic, points from the Remain campaign too.
A large percentage of people voting Leave were voting based on propaganda.
No doubt I'll get shot down for this, but this article from the Independent summarise the misinformation pretty well...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/final-say-brexit-referendum-lies-
A linked article details the lies around additional NHS funding and Immigration figures, which were the cornerstone of the Leave campaign...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vote-leave-brexit-lies-eu-pay-mon
An A-Z on Brexit lies...
https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/list-of-brexit-lies
The attitude of "the country has spoken, it doesn't matter that they were mislead" is bonkers.
There are infinitely more facts available now and people have had no choice but to live through the Brexit debacle. People are better placed to make an informed decision, but admittedly will never be in possesion of all the facts.
That's why, G.
I very rarely get involved in political discussion, but Brexit boils my piss. I'm stepping away from this thread before my bladder explodes and I scald myself. |
Well said, Sir. | | | |
| General election looming? on 19:00 - Oct 23 with 1647 views | todmordendale |
A second referendum then best of three. And then aggregate scores with the winners going through on away votes. | | | |
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