| General election looming? 19:49 - Oct 22 with 23345 views | Daley_Lama |
Who would people vote in in Rochdale?
Lab? A bloke who has voted against every single attempt to deliver Brexit?
Lib: A bloke or woman who would do the same?
Tory? In Rochdale?
I reckon this town could actually vote in a Farage candidate if a general election was called. |  |
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| General election looming? on 17:03 - Oct 24 with 1755 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 16:53 - Oct 24 by D_Alien |
One of the supposed benefits of FPP is that it's intended to result in a definitive majority for one party in parliament, thus ensuring a government which is able to carry through its mandate (for better or worse) until it either loses its majority or gets turfed out at a subsequent election
We've seen since 2017 how difficult its been for the governing party to conduct its business. Although i'm in favour of a form of PR which would result in a more nuanced representative HoC, the problem is where the governing party has to cobble together alliances which (in the case of the DUP, for instance) resulted in a payment being made to NI which they demanded in return for their votes in parliament. Much good it did them when push really came to shove
Whilst there's no guarantee of a majority for any party at the forthcoming election, i suspect the events of the past three years would make any parliamentary majority in favour of introducing a system of PR virtually impossible
[Post edited 24 Oct 2019 16:54]
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You' re viewing PR as you view political parties as they currently exist.
I am hoping this crisis sees the end of labour and conservative parties and the creation of more relevant parties.
The idea of PR, as I understand it, is that it proportions the number of representatives to the number of votes cast, and should therefore be more representative of the way the whole nation voted.
Although FPP has served us well many years ago, it was designed with 2 candidates in mind. And we have seen recently how 2 candidates in an FPP ballot can see the winner denied the spoils. |  |
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| General election looming? on 17:16 - Oct 24 with 1725 views | D_Alien |
| General election looming? on 17:03 - Oct 24 by judd |
You' re viewing PR as you view political parties as they currently exist.
I am hoping this crisis sees the end of labour and conservative parties and the creation of more relevant parties.
The idea of PR, as I understand it, is that it proportions the number of representatives to the number of votes cast, and should therefore be more representative of the way the whole nation voted.
Although FPP has served us well many years ago, it was designed with 2 candidates in mind. And we have seen recently how 2 candidates in an FPP ballot can see the winner denied the spoils. |
I too would expect the current political landscape to be reshaped in light of the old allegiances being broken, largely due to the Brexit process. For all its convoluted and at times infuriatingly indecisive course, there was a dire need for the old Tory/Labour hegemony to be shaken up due to the changes which are reshaping our world
If there is a silver lining to be had, its that this process once again provides the opportunity for the UK (in whatever future form it may take) to evolve in a way which prevents a more violent process from occurring, since the views of the vast majority of the electorate will be taken up by the ensuing reformation of the party system
The question is precisely how this will occur, and which party (or alliance of parties) would pass legislation which sends the old FPP system packing - and with it, much chance of any one party having an outright majority in the future |  |
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| General election looming? on 00:44 - Oct 25 with 1547 views | mikehunt |
| General election looming? on 10:07 - Oct 24 by judd |
Have we got an aquaduct? |
It collapsed in the seventies. |  |
| The worm of time turns not for the cuckoo of circumstance. |
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| General election looming? on 00:45 - Oct 25 with 1544 views | Sandyman |
| General election looming? on 17:03 - Oct 24 by judd |
You' re viewing PR as you view political parties as they currently exist.
I am hoping this crisis sees the end of labour and conservative parties and the creation of more relevant parties.
The idea of PR, as I understand it, is that it proportions the number of representatives to the number of votes cast, and should therefore be more representative of the way the whole nation voted.
Although FPP has served us well many years ago, it was designed with 2 candidates in mind. And we have seen recently how 2 candidates in an FPP ballot can see the winner denied the spoils. |
We had a referendum on FPP in 2011 and "the people" voted to keep it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum [Post edited 25 Oct 2019 0:47]
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| General election looming? on 00:46 - Oct 25 with 1542 views | mikehunt |
I tell you what this debacle has proved to me: that proportional representation is a non starter. No legislation would ever get passed. | |
| The worm of time turns not for the cuckoo of circumstance. |
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| General election looming? on 05:00 - Oct 25 with 1497 views | pioneer |
| General election looming? on 00:46 - Oct 25 by mikehunt |
I tell you what this debacle has proved to me: that proportional representation is a non starter. No legislation would ever get passed. |
I dont get your logic...because the country is in chaos politically and constitutionally under FPP this is an argument for keeping the present system? I think this also ignores the role the fixed term parliaments is having in the current chaos. Without that legislation the would already have been an election called.
There are plenty of countries that have various forms of PR and they seem to manage far better than UK at the moment. At the same time another FPP country, Canada, has just re elected a clown even though his liberal party got fewer votes than the opposition tories. Two of the ten provinces elected no liberals whatsoever, and these were not the smallest provinces. Incidentally one of his election promises at the country’s previous election was to form a committee to explore moving to PR. The committee was canned before it was able to report once its members recognised the implications for the liberal party.
PR would change the way political parties see things and do things, they could no longer afford to ‘write off’ areas of the country as lost causes because every vote counts unlike under FPP.
As someone else has mentioned PR has already been rejected at a referendum, and a UK government would never consider not implementing the result of a referendum......would it? |  | | |
| General election looming? on 08:11 - Oct 25 with 1459 views | Ancoats_Blue |
Not having PR is bonkers. There’s so many seats in this country where 2/3 of the constituents don’t vote for their MP. You end up with a Lab or Tory MP that most people don’t want. Put that to national level and you see that huge numbers of people vote for parties that are unaligned with the government policy. Hardly democratic or representative of the views of the country.
I’d be interested to know what happens in my seat next election. A traditionally safe labour seat in a remain voting area but the MP is now part of Change. Could be a 3 way battle between labour, change and Lib Dem’s. |  | | |
| General election looming? on 08:35 - Oct 25 with 1445 views | judd |
Result accepted. | |
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| General election looming? on 09:22 - Oct 25 with 1432 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| General election looming? on 14:06 - Oct 24 by D_Alien |
I would've accepted a 50.01/49.99% result in favour of Remain
Unequivocally, democratically, without further demur and especially without the shreiking we've heard since by the losing side, which imo will come to no avail when we Leave with the current deal on the table
Another poster posted "sorry it hasn't worked out..." which imo is premature, although its certainly high time for the result to be implemented. And imo the current deal will mean just that - it'll be a full and proper Brexit; not hard, not soft, just Brexit |
I’m surprised at your final line and suspect you’re trying to convince yourself more than anything else.
If Boris’s deal passes, which I suspect in some form it will, we will still to all intents and purposes be in the EU until, at the very earliest, December 2020. Whenever the Withdrawal Agreement is formally activated nothing much will actually change, and I suspect unwitting people will think what was all the fuss about. Not to dissimilar to after the referendum. We won’t actually, however, have left the majority of the EU’s institutions, such as the single market.
In this period, we have to agree a trade agreement with the EU. This is actual Brexit, not the Withdrawal Agreement. Now, given the last three and a half years, you’d be a fool to presume everything is going to go tickety and we’ll have a shiny new trade agreement to sign on December 2020. In the event we haven’t, the Withdrawal Agreement allows for extensions where we will be continue to essentially be in the EU.
It could be years.
It will be the beginning of an extremely long and frustrating process and along the way people may very well want to rethink.
We’ll see. | |
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| General election looming? on 09:24 - Oct 25 with 1429 views | tony_roch975 |
| General election looming? on 08:35 - Oct 25 by judd |
Result accepted. |
but (like Brexit) most supporters of PR would argue the Alternative Vote (on which the Referendum was held) is not real PR! | |
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| General election looming? on 09:45 - Oct 25 with 1413 views | D_Alien |
| General election looming? on 09:22 - Oct 25 by BigDaveMyCock |
I’m surprised at your final line and suspect you’re trying to convince yourself more than anything else.
If Boris’s deal passes, which I suspect in some form it will, we will still to all intents and purposes be in the EU until, at the very earliest, December 2020. Whenever the Withdrawal Agreement is formally activated nothing much will actually change, and I suspect unwitting people will think what was all the fuss about. Not to dissimilar to after the referendum. We won’t actually, however, have left the majority of the EU’s institutions, such as the single market.
In this period, we have to agree a trade agreement with the EU. This is actual Brexit, not the Withdrawal Agreement. Now, given the last three and a half years, you’d be a fool to presume everything is going to go tickety and we’ll have a shiny new trade agreement to sign on December 2020. In the event we haven’t, the Withdrawal Agreement allows for extensions where we will be continue to essentially be in the EU.
It could be years.
It will be the beginning of an extremely long and frustrating process and along the way people may very well want to rethink.
We’ll see. |
Not for the first time in this thread, you're trying to tell people what they think
I suspect that also happens when you don't listen to what your infamous Leave voting acquaintances are telling you | |
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| General election looming? on 10:18 - Oct 25 with 1388 views | ParkinsGimp |
By voting liebore, you would be voting for a "man" who disregards democracy. You could also vote in a government which is openly racist, his again no regards for democracy. Sides with terrorists, some of whom actually murdered British citizens. Have an overtly racsist and uneducated Cabinet including people such as Diane Abbott. Hypocrites who send their children to public schools but wish to stop anyone else from doing so! I cant see why anyone would vote for Labour , the party has become a shocking joke. Run by an awful man who has never done a decent days work in his life and lives a life of luxury .
I despair of the party I once used to support. I cannot bring myself to ever support Labour since that war criminal Blair took charge. God knows who I would vote for? | | | |
| General election looming? on 10:20 - Oct 25 with 1388 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| General election looming? on 15:40 - Oct 24 by judd |
No, having just one is not undemocratic. Referendums are highly infrequent and (should be) forensically specific. I think there have only been 3 nationwide referendums in the UK.
The problem is the refusal of the losing side to accept defeat in a fair fight.
I accept that people change their mind. After all, did the UK not have a referendum to remain or leave the EC in 1975, 67% voting to remain - the result being swiftly and exactly implemented, not that anything needed changing?
Scotland is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as I understand it, not some special case deserving of exemption when it suits. We cannot go back and void the 2014 independence vote because future events were unforeseen, despite a high profile anti-EU swing in local elections in the UK in 2013 and European elections in May 2014, this latter being some 4 months before the Scottish vote, which saw 55%+ vote in favour of remaining in the UK.
Given the rarity of referendums, I think their sanctity has to be upheld as a singular event of huge and critical importance to participants and those mandated to deliver the result. |
Usually referendums settle a matter but we are arguably now more divided than we were at the time of the referendum. I know you will blame the loser/remainers for that but the country is nevertheless bitterly divided.
I respect the fact you want to uphold the sanctity of the referendum but it has not actually achieved any sort of objective. It has not unified, it has resulted in the exact opposite. [Post edited 25 Oct 2019 10:39]
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| General election looming? on 10:21 - Oct 25 with 1387 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| General election looming? on 09:45 - Oct 25 by D_Alien |
Not for the first time in this thread, you're trying to tell people what they think
I suspect that also happens when you don't listen to what your infamous Leave voting acquaintances are telling you |
How have I told you what you think?
The point was that they don’t even provide anything to listen to. However, the best I have heard is something to do with someone’s guts.
I also note that you haven’t actually engaged with my comments. [Post edited 25 Oct 2019 10:46]
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| General election looming? on 10:48 - Oct 25 with 1356 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| General election looming? on 08:35 - Oct 25 by judd |
Result accepted. |
Case closed. | |
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| General election looming? on 10:50 - Oct 25 with 1355 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 10:20 - Oct 25 by BigDaveMyCock |
Usually referendums settle a matter but we are arguably now more divided than we were at the time of the referendum. I know you will blame the loser/remainers for that but the country is nevertheless bitterly divided.
I respect the fact you want to uphold the sanctity of the referendum but it has not actually achieved any sort of objective. It has not unified, it has resulted in the exact opposite. [Post edited 25 Oct 2019 10:39]
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There have been 3 referendums including this one.
3.
The reasons for it not achieving any sort of objective are numerous, but largely because too many people have lost sight of the simple aim of the winning vote - for the United Kingdom to leave the EU.
The UK makes up 15% of the EU population. It is a hugely attractive market. A trade deal based on current tariffs (ie none) will almost certainly be done. | |
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| General election looming? on 10:56 - Oct 25 with 1350 views | tony_roch975 |
| General election looming? on 10:18 - Oct 25 by ParkinsGimp |
By voting liebore, you would be voting for a "man" who disregards democracy. You could also vote in a government which is openly racist, his again no regards for democracy. Sides with terrorists, some of whom actually murdered British citizens. Have an overtly racsist and uneducated Cabinet including people such as Diane Abbott. Hypocrites who send their children to public schools but wish to stop anyone else from doing so! I cant see why anyone would vote for Labour , the party has become a shocking joke. Run by an awful man who has never done a decent days work in his life and lives a life of luxury .
I despair of the party I once used to support. I cannot bring myself to ever support Labour since that war criminal Blair took charge. God knows who I would vote for? |
I agree about Blair's Iraq War policy and Abbott's choice of Private Education but surely current policies are more important - Labour's policies will still better defend public services and workers than Tory policies and deliver a fairer society - the very existence of the NHS depends on kicking out the Tories. One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter (remember Mandela was condemned by the Tories) and talking with 'terrorists' (as you portray Corbyn) is exactly what brought peace to Ireland. I don't buy the Daily Mail line about anti-semitism being endemic in the Labour Party, that's about pro Israel people defaming criticism of Zionism - many of them also unwilling to vote for what their members want (the same criticism Leavers make against MPs!) | |
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| General election looming? on 11:02 - Oct 25 with 1347 views | wimborne_dale |
The fact that we voted for it is compelling enough. We were offered a choice about the destiny of our nation. We made that choice. There was no mention of a "confirmatory" vote at the time. Attempting to get the rules after the event is dirty.
It would be reasonable to ask the question "Leave with the deal offered by The EU or leave without the deal" but I think that should be the job of govt.
Is democracy just a moment in time (23rd June 16)? Of course not but had Remain won you can bet your boots that on that question it would have been. A 2nd referendum is perfectly fine after the first has been implemented. |  |
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| General election looming? on 11:35 - Oct 25 with 1328 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| General election looming? on 10:50 - Oct 25 by judd |
There have been 3 referendums including this one.
3.
The reasons for it not achieving any sort of objective are numerous, but largely because too many people have lost sight of the simple aim of the winning vote - for the United Kingdom to leave the EU.
The UK makes up 15% of the EU population. It is a hugely attractive market. A trade deal based on current tariffs (ie none) will almost certainly be done. |
Sounds like the easiest deal in history.
[Post edited 25 Oct 2019 11:36]
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| General election looming? on 11:38 - Oct 25 with 1325 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 11:35 - Oct 25 by BigDaveMyCock |
Sounds like the easiest deal in history.
[Post edited 25 Oct 2019 11:36]
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It was.
Just been handled my incompetent and duplicitous representatives. | |
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| General election looming? on 11:40 - Oct 25 with 1322 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| General election looming? on 11:38 - Oct 25 by judd |
It was.
Just been handled my incompetent and duplicitous representatives. |
Should have put you in charge.
Nations (or institutions) with nearly 10 times the market tend to drive a harder bargain. [Post edited 25 Oct 2019 11:41]
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| General election looming? on 12:13 - Oct 25 with 1299 views | D_Alien |
| General election looming? on 10:21 - Oct 25 by BigDaveMyCock |
How have I told you what you think?
The point was that they don’t even provide anything to listen to. However, the best I have heard is something to do with someone’s guts.
I also note that you haven’t actually engaged with my comments. [Post edited 25 Oct 2019 10:46]
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You're dead right, since I stopped reading your post as soon as you started to tell me what i thought in your first sentence. What the rest was about was rendered irrelevant
As you might've gathered, i'll engage with those with an open mind, and open bowels | |
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| General election looming? on 12:23 - Oct 25 with 1279 views | judd |
| General election looming? on 11:40 - Oct 25 by BigDaveMyCock |
Should have put you in charge.
Nations (or institutions) with nearly 10 times the market tend to drive a harder bargain. [Post edited 25 Oct 2019 11:41]
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What a novel idea.
I doubt very much that the constituent parts of the institution would drive so hard a bargain as to deny themselves access to the UK market on mutually-beneficial terms. | |
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| General election looming? on 13:15 - Oct 25 with 1253 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| General election looming? on 12:23 - Oct 25 by judd |
What a novel idea.
I doubt very much that the constituent parts of the institution would drive so hard a bargain as to deny themselves access to the UK market on mutually-beneficial terms. |
I doubt very much the EU will grant the UK access to the single market without any costs associated with its upkeep. Unless of course you believe in magically reappearing cakes. | |
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| General election looming? on 13:18 - Oct 25 with 1251 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| General election looming? on 12:13 - Oct 25 by D_Alien |
You're dead right, since I stopped reading your post as soon as you started to tell me what i thought in your first sentence. What the rest was about was rendered irrelevant
As you might've gathered, i'll engage with those with an open mind, and open bowels |
Open minded people tend to read beyond the first line.
And not render what they don’t understand as irrelevant. [Post edited 25 Oct 2019 13:36]
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