| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 11:58 - Feb 8 with 1406 views | fitzochris |
The thing I have an issue with - and have since summer - is this idea that we should finish rock bottom. I’ve never understood that. Is it all because we lost Henderson? I think any intelligent supporter would realise that towards the end of his time with us he wasn’t quite the same player and he’s hardly ripped up trees at Salford.
Was it the loss of Camps? If so, that’s very rose tinted. He was criminally misused during his time with us, so represented no major loss when he left.
Then there are the players BBM brought in and the players remaining. I would argue with anyone that, man for man, we have more talented players than, say, Accrington Stanley in our squad. It’s how the squad is used and gels collectively though, isn’t it?
I just don’t buy for one second that we’ve ever possessed a rock bottom squad, but that myth seems to have been perpetuated among our fan base and beyond to the point that it’s making BBM seem some kind of a miracle worker.
We’ve seen evidence first hand as to just how competitive we could be in this division if he got some of the basics right more consistently. I’m not necessarily talking about promotion, of course, but I’m talking about more than just clinging to our League One status.
Is that what our ultimate ambition is to be year after year? It’s a genuine question, because I just don’t know anymore what the direction is from the board right down to the supporters.
Perhaps if we did have an idea, there’d be a bit more unity and a fair yardstick on which to base what constitutes success. |  |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 12:13 - Feb 8 with 1375 views | AtThePeake |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 11:58 - Feb 8 by fitzochris |
The thing I have an issue with - and have since summer - is this idea that we should finish rock bottom. I’ve never understood that. Is it all because we lost Henderson? I think any intelligent supporter would realise that towards the end of his time with us he wasn’t quite the same player and he’s hardly ripped up trees at Salford.
Was it the loss of Camps? If so, that’s very rose tinted. He was criminally misused during his time with us, so represented no major loss when he left.
Then there are the players BBM brought in and the players remaining. I would argue with anyone that, man for man, we have more talented players than, say, Accrington Stanley in our squad. It’s how the squad is used and gels collectively though, isn’t it?
I just don’t buy for one second that we’ve ever possessed a rock bottom squad, but that myth seems to have been perpetuated among our fan base and beyond to the point that it’s making BBM seem some kind of a miracle worker.
We’ve seen evidence first hand as to just how competitive we could be in this division if he got some of the basics right more consistently. I’m not necessarily talking about promotion, of course, but I’m talking about more than just clinging to our League One status.
Is that what our ultimate ambition is to be year after year? It’s a genuine question, because I just don’t know anymore what the direction is from the board right down to the supporters.
Perhaps if we did have an idea, there’d be a bit more unity and a fair yardstick on which to base what constitutes success. |
At this point I'm inclined to agree because we have seen enough to suggest we can stay up and that's why I've become more frustrated at the performances as the season has gone on.
In the summer though, we had lost Henderson and Camps (as well as Sanchez, Norrington-Davies and Matheson which I think is overlooked a little) and Humphrys was the only one of the seven new players including the 4 loanees that had any league experience of note. I wasn't even sure of Humphrys' ability as I wasn't as impressed as some by his loan spell and his record at Southend was pretty solid but there was little to suggest he would be as good as he has been IMO. It wasn't as if we were starting from a particularly lofty position before we lost those players either and even if Henderson wasn't quite the same player, he still scored 16 goals in a shortened season.
Like I say, over the season I've seen enough to suggest we can be higher up in the table than we are, but at the start of the season I'd have snapped your hand off for 20th. |  |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 12:28 - Feb 8 with 1338 views | Hopwoodblue |
I think at the moment it’s 50 / 50 on who’s to blame ?
It’s not all down to players making mistakes but a mixture of that and the style of play.
Some of the mistakes that have been made are due to players not hoofing the ball when under in their own final third.
This is what makes so frustrating, yes players will always make mistakes more so the further down the football pyramid you go but like most people the style of play in some games has been more frustrating than the mistakes.
As for BBM stilling having the dressing room James if he’s not giving them grief for poor performances it’s no wonder !
Like I keep saying RAFC is more important than nice managers who are not getting the best out of players due to their continued stubbornness not to realise we have to stopping tippy tapping around against teams, especially the ones around us who we need to take points off.
Tomorrow evening has to be all out guns blazing to get three points and not hope we score after putting a 35 pass move together for tap in by someone, so BBM gets the plaudits by these other mangers for his style of play.
We need to wake up and smell the coffee starting tomorrow ! [Post edited 8 Feb 2021 12:31]
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 12:29 - Feb 8 with 1329 views | James1980 |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 11:17 - Feb 8 by TVOS1907 |
I knew that's what you meant, but you seem to be suggesting/implying it's a lot of people
Based on PPG, yes, Dale would stay up as it stands, but that could change in next to no time if we don't start winning games, especially at home.
Why do you think Hill "lost the dressing room"? That's never been rumoured or mentioned. He lost the ability to organise his defence more than anything, which BBM rectified almost immediately. |
Based on a comment on here that had me apologising for being so vehemently in the Hill in camp. Wilbraham's interview on a podcast BBM's interview with the guys from here led me to believe around the time of Hill's departure the atmosphere wasn't particularly good. |  |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 12:37 - Feb 8 with 1304 views | D_Alien |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 11:15 - Feb 8 by AtThePeake |
I don't think it's fair at all to suggest there are no positives. The use of Matheson and Baah in first-team squads saw them develop into huge saleable assets. There have been enjoyable cup runs and the recruitment of players has generally been pretty good. I'd also remind people that in the summer we were huge odds-on to get relegated. We were the same price to stay in L1 as Wycombe were to stay in the Championship. I expected us to finish rock bottom. Looking at the season overall, if he keeps us up, I'd struggle to say he'd done anything other than a good job this season given what my pre-season expectations were.
The thing is, I now believe there is more than enough in this squad to stay up but I'm not convinced that it happens because of the mistakes and wrong decisions we continue to make though and Saturday was maybe the most frustrating yet. After a relatively positive deadline day and a good win last weekend my hopes were so high - instead we rolled over and showed absolutely nothing. I think there have been positives about BBM's reign but I can't think of a single one from Saturday. Utter dross.
This cult of possession we all talk about, it doesn't work. We try and keep the ball in areas that are way, way too deep and as a result, we are often pressured into smashing it long anyway. Only four teams in the whole league have played more long balls than us this season despite the fact that it's obviously not in the game plan. We attempted over 90 long balls on Saturday. We had to do it because we aren't good enough to play out from the back and by the time we had made 3 or 4 aimless passes in our own third we were under so much pressure that we had to hoof it clear anyway. We might as well go long in the first place if that's what's going to happen. Another stat, as Jonahwhereru pointed out I mentioned on the podcast the other week is that we rank 24th for winning possession in the final third this season. We won the ball in the final third twice on Saturday. That's the issue with the philosophy more than the possession for me. It's no wonder we are forced into keeping the ball at the back when it's the only part of the pitch we ever try to win it in.
Charlton played well. They have better players than us and played well so were likely to win. The issue is that really, they could and probably should have won by 5 or 6 on Saturday. If they are THAT good then we would never have scored four against them last month. They would never have lost to Accrington or MK Dons or Burton Albion. I can't stand this attitude of 'well they're better than us so we obviously weren't going to win' that seems to seep through from some fans when we lose to a bigger side in the league. What happened to no fear football and taking on Southamptons and Sheffield Uniteds like the League One sides that they were at the time? Why are some fans now so keen to suggest our current team aren't good enough to compete against top-half L1 sides? I may have thought we would finish bottom of the table, but I at least thought we would put up a fight in every game. I'd rather us try to compete and lose because we're not good enough than lose rolling over because we don't believe we can compete.
Also on a more specific point - I'm not sure why everyone is desperate for Roberts to be in the starting XI, he's been one of our worst performers for a long time now. Just leave him out rather than trying to push him into midfield or left-back. |
Perfect summary of where i'm at, including last paragraph |  |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 12:38 - Feb 8 with 1299 views | fitzochris |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 12:13 - Feb 8 by AtThePeake |
At this point I'm inclined to agree because we have seen enough to suggest we can stay up and that's why I've become more frustrated at the performances as the season has gone on.
In the summer though, we had lost Henderson and Camps (as well as Sanchez, Norrington-Davies and Matheson which I think is overlooked a little) and Humphrys was the only one of the seven new players including the 4 loanees that had any league experience of note. I wasn't even sure of Humphrys' ability as I wasn't as impressed as some by his loan spell and his record at Southend was pretty solid but there was little to suggest he would be as good as he has been IMO. It wasn't as if we were starting from a particularly lofty position before we lost those players either and even if Henderson wasn't quite the same player, he still scored 16 goals in a shortened season.
Like I say, over the season I've seen enough to suggest we can be higher up in the table than we are, but at the start of the season I'd have snapped your hand off for 20th. |
But Matheson aside, those were loans and it’s a regular issue with Dale that we need to replace our guests with new ones after each season.
I totally accept that we weren’t starting from a lofty position, but we never do. The bookies and other ‘preview writers’ based a lot of their forecasts on the fact Henderson left and had us down before a ball was kicked. I think a lot of that apathy crept into supporter mentality.
We always bring in unknown quantities - some work and some don’t. Other than perhaps a depth issue, I felt the pre-season write off by many was unfair.
Other than Bola, BBM has recruited well enough and I personally, based on what I’ve seen, think we are actually slightly underperforming.
The question for me now, though, is: what’s the plan going forward? | |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 12:39 - Feb 8 with 1290 views | TVOS1907 |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 12:29 - Feb 8 by James1980 |
Based on a comment on here that had me apologising for being so vehemently in the Hill in camp. Wilbraham's interview on a podcast BBM's interview with the guys from here led me to believe around the time of Hill's departure the atmosphere wasn't particularly good. |
That wasn't on the podcast on here, it was on a YouTube thing and was a comment from a player who had just been dropped!
Why do you feel the need to apologise for your opinion James? I don't agree with a lot of what you write and think you keep looking for spurious reasons as to why things are happening (such as that one last night about protecting the players' feelings or whatever you said), but you should never feel the need to apologise for them. |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 12:44 - Feb 8 with 1266 views | AtThePeake |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 12:38 - Feb 8 by fitzochris |
But Matheson aside, those were loans and it’s a regular issue with Dale that we need to replace our guests with new ones after each season.
I totally accept that we weren’t starting from a lofty position, but we never do. The bookies and other ‘preview writers’ based a lot of their forecasts on the fact Henderson left and had us down before a ball was kicked. I think a lot of that apathy crept into supporter mentality.
We always bring in unknown quantities - some work and some don’t. Other than perhaps a depth issue, I felt the pre-season write off by many was unfair.
Other than Bola, BBM has recruited well enough and I personally, based on what I’ve seen, think we are actually slightly underperforming.
The question for me now, though, is: what’s the plan going forward? |
I don't think it was just Henderson though. I think we were going from a position where we had just about kept our heads above the water and our squad at that time seemed like it may have been weakened significantly without knowing anything about the quality of players like Newby and Bazunu. We know we always have to replace loan players but it's rare we will have to replace loan players quite as good as RND and Sanchez were so it's not unreasonable to expect the players we bring in to not be quite as good (and for what it's worth I still think we are significantly weaker in those two areas of the pitch specifically than we were last season).
Over the course of the season I have seen enough to believe that you're right in that we're slightly underperforming at the minute but I still think without knowing what we now know that the negativity was justified in the summer. | |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 12:53 - Feb 8 with 1228 views | D_Alien |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 12:38 - Feb 8 by fitzochris |
But Matheson aside, those were loans and it’s a regular issue with Dale that we need to replace our guests with new ones after each season.
I totally accept that we weren’t starting from a lofty position, but we never do. The bookies and other ‘preview writers’ based a lot of their forecasts on the fact Henderson left and had us down before a ball was kicked. I think a lot of that apathy crept into supporter mentality.
We always bring in unknown quantities - some work and some don’t. Other than perhaps a depth issue, I felt the pre-season write off by many was unfair.
Other than Bola, BBM has recruited well enough and I personally, based on what I’ve seen, think we are actually slightly underperforming.
The question for me now, though, is: what’s the plan going forward? |
That leads into the question of how BBM and the board interact. If the board (and some members are more key than others, of course) have BBM's back for adhering to a plan of acquiring young players and developing them as saleable assets - the latest being Baah - then he's doing a pretty good job in their eyes and is under no threat whatsoever. The type of football we (try to) play is another selling point
The fly in the ointment is that if we drop into L2, recruitment of talented youngsters and the ability to acquire decent loanees from higher up the chain becomes that much less likely
It also begs the question - what about fans? The club are getting off so lightly this season due to a virus. The business model to maintain the club is through a combination of producing saleable assets plus maintaining a reasonable fanbase. There - the virus works against the club, for more reasons than one (unfortunately)
Once the fanbase goes, there's nothing left and that's what's at stake here - not just relegation. That's what our esteemed board and through them, the manager, will have to contend with and the sooner they get to grips with the issue of providing a team that fans will be willing to watch at COA the better
The media and pundits may have played a role in seducing the board (so to speak) into thinking we're great entertainers, but they watch the games too. Maybe it looks different from the directors box than via iFollow, but the briefest of perusals of this messageboard should be sufficient warning for them, if they have the slightest interest in fan loyalty
[Post edited 8 Feb 2021 12:55]
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 12:56 - Feb 8 with 1209 views | fitzochris |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 12:44 - Feb 8 by AtThePeake |
I don't think it was just Henderson though. I think we were going from a position where we had just about kept our heads above the water and our squad at that time seemed like it may have been weakened significantly without knowing anything about the quality of players like Newby and Bazunu. We know we always have to replace loan players but it's rare we will have to replace loan players quite as good as RND and Sanchez were so it's not unreasonable to expect the players we bring in to not be quite as good (and for what it's worth I still think we are significantly weaker in those two areas of the pitch specifically than we were last season).
Over the course of the season I have seen enough to believe that you're right in that we're slightly underperforming at the minute but I still think without knowing what we now know that the negativity was justified in the summer. |
We are weaker at left back, that’s for sure. No denying that. Bazunu and Sanchez? Sanchez was a better keeper but, again, it’s easy having now seen him in Brighton’s first team to perhaps reflect even more favourably. Bazunu has pulled off some terrific saves only to be let down by his defence. He, too, has been culpable of costing us goals though, as Sanchez was last season. They’re young. It’ll happen. I’d argue that if we were to loan a keeper rather than bringing in a permanent one, we could’ve done a lot worse.
Anyway, I’m splitting hairs now.
I completely agree about a point you made in an earlier post too about Roberts. He was imperious in his first few outings, and his driving forward was a benefit too - but that’s waned now. He’s certainly no left back either. There may be an unfortunate condition in his loan agreement that insists he has to play if fit. That could prove detrimental.
There’s also a school of thought that defending comes second with he and EOC, what with them being ball players and all. That’s certainly not the mentality we need right now. More McShane please! | |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:02 - Feb 8 with 1193 views | fitzochris |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 12:53 - Feb 8 by D_Alien |
That leads into the question of how BBM and the board interact. If the board (and some members are more key than others, of course) have BBM's back for adhering to a plan of acquiring young players and developing them as saleable assets - the latest being Baah - then he's doing a pretty good job in their eyes and is under no threat whatsoever. The type of football we (try to) play is another selling point
The fly in the ointment is that if we drop into L2, recruitment of talented youngsters and the ability to acquire decent loanees from higher up the chain becomes that much less likely
It also begs the question - what about fans? The club are getting off so lightly this season due to a virus. The business model to maintain the club is through a combination of producing saleable assets plus maintaining a reasonable fanbase. There - the virus works against the club, for more reasons than one (unfortunately)
Once the fanbase goes, there's nothing left and that's what's at stake here - not just relegation. That's what our esteemed board and through them, the manager, will have to contend with and the sooner they get to grips with the issue of providing a team that fans will be willing to watch at COA the better
The media and pundits may have played a role in seducing the board (so to speak) into thinking we're great entertainers, but they watch the games too. Maybe it looks different from the directors box than via iFollow, but the briefest of perusals of this messageboard should be sufficient warning for them, if they have the slightest interest in fan loyalty
[Post edited 8 Feb 2021 12:55]
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Absolutely spot on.
And the board will have a very big decision to make soon regarding BBM’s contract, especially if we stay up. If they decide not to renew it, they will face a backlash from some supporters, sure, but if they want more than mere survival each season - and feel someone else is better placed to deliver that, they will need to be brave. If they feel that man is still BBM, then I hope it’s for the right reasons. | |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:11 - Feb 8 with 1143 views | judd |
Some fantastic debate and opinions here and not a cross word - great stuff.
I would throw into the relegation favourites debate the very public statements of pauperism, and Hendos ready made replacement. |  |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:12 - Feb 8 with 1141 views | TVOS1907 |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:11 - Feb 8 by judd |
Some fantastic debate and opinions here and not a cross word - great stuff.
I would throw into the relegation favourites debate the very public statements of pauperism, and Hendos ready made replacement. |
F** off, Judd
* and an asterisk too few here! [Post edited 8 Feb 2021 13:36]
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| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:13 - Feb 8 with 1135 views | judd |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:12 - Feb 8 by TVOS1907 |
F** off, Judd
* and an asterisk too few here! [Post edited 8 Feb 2021 13:36]
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B*****d
😠[Post edited 8 Feb 2021 13:53]
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:14 - Feb 8 with 1134 views | D_Alien |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:11 - Feb 8 by judd |
Some fantastic debate and opinions here and not a cross word - great stuff.
I would throw into the relegation favourites debate the very public statements of pauperism, and Hendos ready made replacement. |
I finished the crossword before logging in | |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:14 - Feb 8 with 1126 views | fitzochris |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:11 - Feb 8 by judd |
Some fantastic debate and opinions here and not a cross word - great stuff.
I would throw into the relegation favourites debate the very public statements of pauperism, and Hendos ready made replacement. |
Precisely that. It didn’t help the fan mentality- especially when the level of support BBM was given appeared to contradict that stance. | |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:16 - Feb 8 with 1111 views | judd |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:14 - Feb 8 by D_Alien |
I finished the crossword before logging in |
What TVOS started with (4,3)
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:25 - Feb 8 with 1080 views | tony_roch975 |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 11:50 - Feb 8 by AtThePeake |
Possibly but if so that would be a case of us regressing rather than those at the top improving. Look at some of the players in that Southampton side we beat - they certainly had plenty of resource and ability. |
and in the last 3 years, which many on here condemn as a failure to maintain 'no fear' football, we have had some of our best results - holding Newcastle and Spurs at home and Utd at Old Trafford; it's the danger of generalising from one-off exceptions; in general, relative to the top teams in our league, of course all bottom teams have regressed - either way it offers an alternative view to the obsession that all we need is a different 'approach'! | |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:26 - Feb 8 with 1076 views | D_Alien |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:16 - Feb 8 by judd |
What TVOS started with (4,3)
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I believe that'll be 4 down? | |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:29 - Feb 8 with 1055 views | James1980 |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 12:28 - Feb 8 by Hopwoodblue |
I think at the moment it’s 50 / 50 on who’s to blame ?
It’s not all down to players making mistakes but a mixture of that and the style of play.
Some of the mistakes that have been made are due to players not hoofing the ball when under in their own final third.
This is what makes so frustrating, yes players will always make mistakes more so the further down the football pyramid you go but like most people the style of play in some games has been more frustrating than the mistakes.
As for BBM stilling having the dressing room James if he’s not giving them grief for poor performances it’s no wonder !
Like I keep saying RAFC is more important than nice managers who are not getting the best out of players due to their continued stubbornness not to realise we have to stopping tippy tapping around against teams, especially the ones around us who we need to take points off.
Tomorrow evening has to be all out guns blazing to get three points and not hope we score after putting a 35 pass move together for tap in by someone, so BBM gets the plaudits by these other mangers for his style of play.
We need to wake up and smell the coffee starting tomorrow ! [Post edited 8 Feb 2021 12:31]
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On the podcast Humphrys was on last night he said BBM isn't a hairdryer treatment manager but let's the players he has let him down a bit like a disappointed relative. Also after the first half of the Plymouth game he let the team know he wasn't happy with the number of chances we gave away. | |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:30 - Feb 8 with 1049 views | 442Dale |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:29 - Feb 8 by James1980 |
On the podcast Humphrys was on last night he said BBM isn't a hairdryer treatment manager but let's the players he has let him down a bit like a disappointed relative. Also after the first half of the Plymouth game he let the team know he wasn't happy with the number of chances we gave away. |
And my first thought to that was “so is he disappointed at half time and full time in most games when we give so many chances to the opposition?”
Because if he is, he should have done something about it by now. |  |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:35 - Feb 8 with 1034 views | TVOS1907 |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:13 - Feb 8 by judd |
B*****d
😠[Post edited 8 Feb 2021 13:53]
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There could be an asterisk too many there. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:37 - Feb 8 with 1028 views | TVOS1907 |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:26 - Feb 8 by D_Alien |
I believe that'll be 4 down? |
Hopefully not at half-time! | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:54 - Feb 8 with 995 views | judd |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:35 - Feb 8 by TVOS1907 |
There could be an asterisk too many there. |
(*) | |
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| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 14:11 - Feb 8 with 958 views | AtThePeake |
| Match Thread: Rochdale vs Charlton on 13:25 - Feb 8 by tony_roch975 |
and in the last 3 years, which many on here condemn as a failure to maintain 'no fear' football, we have had some of our best results - holding Newcastle and Spurs at home and Utd at Old Trafford; it's the danger of generalising from one-off exceptions; in general, relative to the top teams in our league, of course all bottom teams have regressed - either way it offers an alternative view to the obsession that all we need is a different 'approach'! |
But then if we can take on the likes of Newcastle and Spurs and Manchester United - why should we fear Charlton? Why are some fans so quick to write games off against the stronger sides in our league as almost unwinnable after a defeat?
I'm not expecting us to beat these teams btw, but I am at least expecting us to make it as difficult as possible for them. I don't think we've got close to that on quite a few occasions this season. | |
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