| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game 18:49 - Feb 15 with 31925 views | Rangersw12 |
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| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 09:31 - Feb 20 with 2725 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 01:48 - Feb 20 by Benny_the_Ball |
First off, read my posts before responding. I've made it abundantly clear that the aim of any protest should be to question decisions and seek improvement, not hound the board out. If we demonstrate apathy off the pitch then we deserve the apathy being shown on it.
Next, there are plenty of supporters who give the owners a free pass by ignoring a catalogue of mistakes, buying into their excuses and then regurgitating them to the fanbase. You only have to look on this message board and count the number of posters who throw their arms in the air and bemoan FFP, just because Les and Lee said so. All of a sudden, Lee finds £1m behind the sofa to pay off Neil and his coaching staff.
Finally, owning the club is not like being a first team coach. You can't hound owners out without replacements. For the current owners to leave they'd have to find buyers, and no one in their right mind is interested in inheriting the mess they've created. We're stuck with these owners so we may as well demand an improvement in their performance. [Post edited 20 Feb 2023 2:28]
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"You only have to look on this message board and count the number of posters who throw their arms in the air and bemoan FFP, just because Les and Lee said so. All of a sudden, Lee finds £1m behind the sofa to pay off Neil and his coaching staff."
Clive has said on here that we need £10m soon to escape FFP. Ferdinand and Hoos are quiet on the subject as you'd expect them to be. From that £10m, we can deduct about 0.5m for the World Cup fees and about £1.5m (iirc) for Beale and staff, and now add £1m to Critchley and staff, so we need about £9m by my count.
Nobody bemoans FFP because "Les and Lee said so", we do it because it's real. |  |
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| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 09:32 - Feb 20 with 2719 views | Esox_Lucius |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 16:35 - Feb 19 by PunteR |
I don't think fans can literally hound the board out.
A protest is a way of drawing media attention and I guess try and snap the board into some kind of productive action. I honestly don't think this board is that thin skinned to just close the club down in some sort of spiteful move.
Things have to start changing though. They've had 12 years here and we've taken a huge step backwards since last season. We're almost back to square one from 20 years ago. With all the money thats been swirling around the club in that time it's really inexcusable. |
What SHOULD the business model be then? |  |
| The grass is always greener. |
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| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 11:06 - Feb 20 with 2573 views | PunteR |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 09:32 - Feb 20 by Esox_Lucius |
What SHOULD the business model be then? |
The business model is fine as far as i can see just need to be better at it. And stick to it.
For example , don't rely on the manager to bring players in. Don't rely on loans. Don't give contracts to players with poor injury records. Reward players with improved contracts if they do well.
Stuff like that I guess.
Get some strikers.
Basics really.
Clearly scouting needs to improve. The physio department needs to improve. Coaching throw ons. That sort of stuff. |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 16:23 - Feb 20 with 2430 views | PinnerPaul |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 02:32 - Feb 20 by Benny_the_Ball |
I don't buy the writing a £1.8m cheque a month myth but I do agree that during the match our energy should be focused on supporting the team as most of us don't want to see the club in League 1 next season. However, there is room for protest outside of the 90 minutes if the board refuse to engage the fans in meaningful dialogue. |
Why is the £1.8M a myth?
Its not something they have ever 'claimed'. - its there in the accounts.
Unless you are adding fraud to the list of charges and that would be the need to be levelled at the independent auditors as well - a serious allegation.
Furthermore are you claiming they are understating or overstating their contribution?
In either case what would be the motivation/ upside in doing that for them?
Last point 'finding' the 'cash' for NC etc pay offs isn't the problem - its fitting it into the 3 year rolling losses that will be. | | | |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 16:26 - Feb 20 with 2410 views | PinnerPaul |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 09:31 - Feb 20 by BrianMcCarthy |
"You only have to look on this message board and count the number of posters who throw their arms in the air and bemoan FFP, just because Les and Lee said so. All of a sudden, Lee finds £1m behind the sofa to pay off Neil and his coaching staff."
Clive has said on here that we need £10m soon to escape FFP. Ferdinand and Hoos are quiet on the subject as you'd expect them to be. From that £10m, we can deduct about 0.5m for the World Cup fees and about £1.5m (iirc) for Beale and staff, and now add £1m to Critchley and staff, so we need about £9m by my count.
Nobody bemoans FFP because "Les and Lee said so", we do it because it's real. |
Problem is Brian, accounting and FFP rules are complex.
Simon may know, but its possible we can account for NC etc pay off over the life of their contracts?
All sorts of complexities like that we don't understand.
As I said on another thread, I do agree with you, its not 'finding the £1m" that's the problem, its accounting for it within FFP. | | | |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 16:54 - Feb 20 with 2372 views | QPR_Jim |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 02:26 - Feb 20 by Benny_the_Ball |
Many clubs seem to function well without a DoF so I remain unconvinced that the model is a prerequisite for success. Nevertheless if you do employ a DoF then hire someone with the experience and credentials for the role.
Les has achieved very little in 8 years. The churn in managers and playing staff continues. The academy is producing next to no players, and the first team is still heavily reliant on loans. As for cutting the wage bill, it's Lee who is in charge of the finances. In any event, this didn't happen through any creativity on Lee or Les' part. It happened organically because the eye-watering contracts that the board handed out like confetti in the PL expired. The wage bill would've dropped anyway even if you or I had been DoF.
Ultimately, the whole point of a DoF is that they build the squad and the coaches coach the squad that they're given. The idea is that there's continuity in playing staff even when managers come and go. That continuity hasn't happened. Now if, as you allege, Les allowed Beale to bring in his own players then that alone is justification to relieve him of his post. It's those same players who downed tools when Beale left and ultimately cost Neil his job. It's those same players that could see QPR playing in League 1 next season. |
"Many clubs seem to function well without a DoF so I remain unconvinced that the model is a prerequisite for success. Nevertheless if you do employ a DoF then hire someone with the experience and credentials for the role." - I don't think enough clubs had been using a DoF for long enough for there to be an experienced candidate for the role 8 years ago. Similar situation happened when analytics expanded within the game, you're going to have take a punt on the right guy with the right background to pick up the role while it becomes an established norm.
"It happened organically because the eye-watering contracts that the board handed out like confetti in the PL expired. The wage bill would've dropped anyway even if you or I had been DoF." - It happened organically like that at a lot of clubs and resulted in relegation which is where the budget constraints Lee has to imposed to keep within FFP pose a challenge for a DoF. A challenge I think Les did OK with initially but not as well as some other clubs. Also those eye-watering contracts handed out by managers that put us in that situation is why we need a DoF.
On you final paragraph, I agree, I think it is probably time (either now or at the end of the season) for Les to go. Someone said that MW was his first appointment as manager without interference, that's 4 years then that he's been performing his role left to his own devices without interference from the board, as it should be. The situations with GK and strikers and the continued collapses has to therefore be a result of his tenure and is probably the most damning thing to his position. |  | | |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 08:22 - Feb 23 with 2167 views | Esox_Lucius |
Is the protest still on? I'll be getting to the ground early just in case. | |
| The grass is always greener. |
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| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 08:34 - Feb 23 with 2105 views | Northernr |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 02:32 - Feb 20 by Benny_the_Ball |
I don't buy the writing a £1.8m cheque a month myth but I do agree that during the match our energy should be focused on supporting the team as most of us don't want to see the club in League 1 next season. However, there is room for protest outside of the 90 minutes if the board refuse to engage the fans in meaningful dialogue. |
I'm interested, myth? It's in black and white in the accounts. |  | | |
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| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 09:12 - Feb 23 with 2016 views | Rangersw12 |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 09:31 - Feb 20 by BrianMcCarthy |
"You only have to look on this message board and count the number of posters who throw their arms in the air and bemoan FFP, just because Les and Lee said so. All of a sudden, Lee finds £1m behind the sofa to pay off Neil and his coaching staff."
Clive has said on here that we need £10m soon to escape FFP. Ferdinand and Hoos are quiet on the subject as you'd expect them to be. From that £10m, we can deduct about 0.5m for the World Cup fees and about £1.5m (iirc) for Beale and staff, and now add £1m to Critchley and staff, so we need about £9m by my count.
Nobody bemoans FFP because "Les and Lee said so", we do it because it's real. |
The problem we have as a fan base and the club is that we/they use FFP as an excuse for under performing
Hoos and Les both throw their hands up staying FFP yet there are clubs on similar or smaller budgets out performing us
The club needs to be far better run every single department | | | |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 09:59 - Feb 23 with 1912 views | TheChef |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 08:34 - Feb 23 by Northernr |
I'm interested, myth? It's in black and white in the accounts. |
Don't let facts get in the way of a good argument. |  |
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| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 10:25 - Feb 23 with 1845 views | francisbowles |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 16:54 - Feb 20 by QPR_Jim |
"Many clubs seem to function well without a DoF so I remain unconvinced that the model is a prerequisite for success. Nevertheless if you do employ a DoF then hire someone with the experience and credentials for the role." - I don't think enough clubs had been using a DoF for long enough for there to be an experienced candidate for the role 8 years ago. Similar situation happened when analytics expanded within the game, you're going to have take a punt on the right guy with the right background to pick up the role while it becomes an established norm.
"It happened organically because the eye-watering contracts that the board handed out like confetti in the PL expired. The wage bill would've dropped anyway even if you or I had been DoF." - It happened organically like that at a lot of clubs and resulted in relegation which is where the budget constraints Lee has to imposed to keep within FFP pose a challenge for a DoF. A challenge I think Les did OK with initially but not as well as some other clubs. Also those eye-watering contracts handed out by managers that put us in that situation is why we need a DoF.
On you final paragraph, I agree, I think it is probably time (either now or at the end of the season) for Les to go. Someone said that MW was his first appointment as manager without interference, that's 4 years then that he's been performing his role left to his own devices without interference from the board, as it should be. The situations with GK and strikers and the continued collapses has to therefore be a result of his tenure and is probably the most damning thing to his position. |
Great post QPR Jim. Balanced and well put and I agree with almost all of it.
The one bit I am unsure of, is whether now is the right time for Les to go. We have just appointed (another) new manager on (another) three and a half year contract, we surely don't want to turn things upside down just after he has walked in the door. Stability is what has been missing this season and now we need to demonstrate some.
The other piece of the puzzle being overlooked is the Training ground and the effect of moving the academy into these vastly improved facilities.
It's not quite complete yet, so it's too early to judge how successful this investment is. How big a part did Les play in it's planning and organisation and how soon is it going to start bringing players through to the first team?
If, in the future, it makes a huge difference to the club in terms of improved first team performance and developing players who can enhance our squad then how big a factor will that be in judging the success or otherwise of our first DOF? | | | |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 10:26 - Feb 23 with 1826 views | Bluce_Ree |
I dunno about protests. It's a bit keen isn't it. |  |
| Stefan Moore, Stefan Moore running down the wing. Stefan Moore, Stefan Moore running down the wing. He runs like a cheetah, his crosses couldn't be sweeter. Stefan Moore. Stefan Moore. Stefan Moore. |
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| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 10:36 - Feb 23 with 1759 views | PinnerPaul |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 08:34 - Feb 23 by Northernr |
I'm interested, myth? It's in black and white in the accounts. |
That's what I asked a few days ago - strange accusation. | | | |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 10:41 - Feb 23 with 1736 views | Esox_Lucius |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 10:36 - Feb 23 by PinnerPaul |
That's what I asked a few days ago - strange accusation. |
Not for the anti LF/ LH cadre it isn't. | |
| The grass is always greener. |
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| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 10:42 - Feb 23 with 1732 views | TK1 |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 09:12 - Feb 23 by Rangersw12 |
The problem we have as a fan base and the club is that we/they use FFP as an excuse for under performing
Hoos and Les both throw their hands up staying FFP yet there are clubs on similar or smaller budgets out performing us
The club needs to be far better run every single department |
Other clubs are not paying off a world record FFP fine. The fine the club received for breaking the FFP laws in the first place is why LF was brought in (and LH to manage it).
This is not difficult and it's not an excuse. It's documented fact. QPR, the board, gave themselves a £17 million handicap before any of the FFP limits that other clubs have to match, while already being somewhat handicapped by stadium/location (the mention of which would be an excuse, but also a reason).
The time to demonstrate was in 2012, 2013, 2014 when Tony Fernandes was breaking every financial rule, signing players and managers we couldn't afford, on contracts we couldn't fulfil, pissing the PL legacy up the wall as soon as it landed. Those were actions, we are now stuck with decades of consequence. Park Ji-sung, Samba, Boswingwa, Barton, Benyaoun, Redknapp etc etc...that's when you protest. When Park is being unveiled in some high rise for the Far East media.
We clapped instead. No point protesting when the barn door has been blown into a million pieces and these guys are trying their best to put back together. Yeah, they're limited. So is the club. Some it works better than other bits, but I trust them more than the people who broke it in the first place. The training ground is a big reparation, though. | | | |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 10:45 - Feb 23 with 1715 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
Wasting your breath. You might as well argue with a pigeon in the upper Loft. |  | | |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 10:48 - Feb 23 with 1702 views | PinnerPaul |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 09:12 - Feb 23 by Rangersw12 |
The problem we have as a fan base and the club is that we/they use FFP as an excuse for under performing
Hoos and Les both throw their hands up staying FFP yet there are clubs on similar or smaller budgets out performing us
The club needs to be far better run every single department |
That's a fair point.
I'm always banging on about how we're not the only club to lose matches, managers, have injuries, loan players etc etc etc, so for balance yes that does need pointing out.
Not all clubs doing better than us have PL money to help. | | | |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 11:24 - Feb 23 with 1609 views | QPR_Jim |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 10:25 - Feb 23 by francisbowles |
Great post QPR Jim. Balanced and well put and I agree with almost all of it.
The one bit I am unsure of, is whether now is the right time for Les to go. We have just appointed (another) new manager on (another) three and a half year contract, we surely don't want to turn things upside down just after he has walked in the door. Stability is what has been missing this season and now we need to demonstrate some.
The other piece of the puzzle being overlooked is the Training ground and the effect of moving the academy into these vastly improved facilities.
It's not quite complete yet, so it's too early to judge how successful this investment is. How big a part did Les play in it's planning and organisation and how soon is it going to start bringing players through to the first team?
If, in the future, it makes a huge difference to the club in terms of improved first team performance and developing players who can enhance our squad then how big a factor will that be in judging the success or otherwise of our first DOF? |
You're right, having just appointed GA, LF should at least be kept in place until the end of the season. There's not a lot which can be done between now and then anyway for the DoF, only forward planning and contracts I guess.
What I keep coming back to with LF is that he's had this long period of being left to it, possibly 4 years and the squad isn't kicking on. They're prone to long bad runs, we have manager get's what he wants still going on and generally the attitude from the squad seems bad (esp. under NC). So question marks remain over his ability to put together a squad, which is the key way he can help the club succeed. | | | |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 11:41 - Feb 23 with 1545 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 11:24 - Feb 23 by QPR_Jim |
You're right, having just appointed GA, LF should at least be kept in place until the end of the season. There's not a lot which can be done between now and then anyway for the DoF, only forward planning and contracts I guess.
What I keep coming back to with LF is that he's had this long period of being left to it, possibly 4 years and the squad isn't kicking on. They're prone to long bad runs, we have manager get's what he wants still going on and generally the attitude from the squad seems bad (esp. under NC). So question marks remain over his ability to put together a squad, which is the key way he can help the club succeed. |
As with everything the fans demand be chucked, the question should always be, is there better available?
I’d question the pedigree of any DoF that wants to come to a club third bottom of the FFP table with 8 managers in 10 years. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 12:29]
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| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 13:07 - Feb 23 with 1466 views | simmo |
I often wonder why FFP doesn't reflect a clubs revenue ability - it doesn't seem fair that clubs with less earning power and increased running costs should have the same deficit cap... That said I think there's examples of 4 or 5 others in this league with the same constraints that are working smarter - so it would be good to sit down and discuss tangible action points with those deciding the strategy.
Other than that the original statement is basically firing a gun into the air. |  |
| ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead |
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| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 13:56 - Feb 23 with 1372 views | joe90 |
Is this protest still going ahead? Only asking because I want to get my pitchfork ready. |  | | |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 14:11 - Feb 23 with 1321 views | QPR_Jim |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 11:41 - Feb 23 by BazzaInTheLoft |
As with everything the fans demand be chucked, the question should always be, is there better available?
I’d question the pedigree of any DoF that wants to come to a club third bottom of the FFP table with 8 managers in 10 years. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 12:29]
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That stance is a bit limiting though in this instance. I get it with managers, you have a good idea of who the options are but there are still candidates like Beale who wouldn't be on many fans radar. Alternatives for DoF would be even more obscure for fans to come up with, but I would suggest the owners should have a good idea of the other options. | | | |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 14:22 - Feb 23 with 1278 views | PinnerPaul |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 10:42 - Feb 23 by TK1 |
Other clubs are not paying off a world record FFP fine. The fine the club received for breaking the FFP laws in the first place is why LF was brought in (and LH to manage it).
This is not difficult and it's not an excuse. It's documented fact. QPR, the board, gave themselves a £17 million handicap before any of the FFP limits that other clubs have to match, while already being somewhat handicapped by stadium/location (the mention of which would be an excuse, but also a reason).
The time to demonstrate was in 2012, 2013, 2014 when Tony Fernandes was breaking every financial rule, signing players and managers we couldn't afford, on contracts we couldn't fulfil, pissing the PL legacy up the wall as soon as it landed. Those were actions, we are now stuck with decades of consequence. Park Ji-sung, Samba, Boswingwa, Barton, Benyaoun, Redknapp etc etc...that's when you protest. When Park is being unveiled in some high rise for the Far East media.
We clapped instead. No point protesting when the barn door has been blown into a million pieces and these guys are trying their best to put back together. Yeah, they're limited. So is the club. Some it works better than other bits, but I trust them more than the people who broke it in the first place. The training ground is a big reparation, though. |
2 things, we got 10 years to pay it off and the most important thing, it does NOT count towards our FFP spend! | | | |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 14:45 - Feb 23 with 1202 views | Rangersw12 |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 10:42 - Feb 23 by TK1 |
Other clubs are not paying off a world record FFP fine. The fine the club received for breaking the FFP laws in the first place is why LF was brought in (and LH to manage it).
This is not difficult and it's not an excuse. It's documented fact. QPR, the board, gave themselves a £17 million handicap before any of the FFP limits that other clubs have to match, while already being somewhat handicapped by stadium/location (the mention of which would be an excuse, but also a reason).
The time to demonstrate was in 2012, 2013, 2014 when Tony Fernandes was breaking every financial rule, signing players and managers we couldn't afford, on contracts we couldn't fulfil, pissing the PL legacy up the wall as soon as it landed. Those were actions, we are now stuck with decades of consequence. Park Ji-sung, Samba, Boswingwa, Barton, Benyaoun, Redknapp etc etc...that's when you protest. When Park is being unveiled in some high rise for the Far East media.
We clapped instead. No point protesting when the barn door has been blown into a million pieces and these guys are trying their best to put back together. Yeah, they're limited. So is the club. Some it works better than other bits, but I trust them more than the people who broke it in the first place. The training ground is a big reparation, though. |
Cheers for the history lesson and lecture but the FFP fine isn't included in the FFP calculations so its irrelevant
Point is crap like Luton are head of us with the same restrictions yet some fans like you just blame it on FFP when reality is we're being run terribly and we should be doing better | | | |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 15:28 - Feb 23 with 1112 views | Northernr |
| Potential LSA Protest Blackburn game on 14:45 - Feb 23 by Rangersw12 |
Cheers for the history lesson and lecture but the FFP fine isn't included in the FFP calculations so its irrelevant
Point is crap like Luton are head of us with the same restrictions yet some fans like you just blame it on FFP when reality is we're being run terribly and we should be doing better |
You're right, I've seen a lot of QPR fans online thinking it counts against present FFP calculations, and it doesn't. Otherwise FFP risks becoming a self fulfilling cycle - you breach FFP, get fined, then breach it again because of the fine, get fined, then breach it again becuase of the fine and so on. It's on the list of exemptions.
However... where it does become relevant again is when people start shouting "sack the board". Because to get rid of the board you either have to find a buyer, or they dump it which means administration and collapse and relegation and all of that fun. If you wanted to buy QPR from the owners then the remainder of the FFP fine (think we agreed £17m paid over 10 years, and we're, what 4/5years into that now? So £8-10mish?) would have to be paid by you, unless you could get the current owners to swallow it as part of the deal. As would whatever is left on the training ground development - don't know this figure but the cost of the overall development was just past £20m and the bond raised just north of £7m, so potentially as much as £13m to pay. Then you've got a loss that, at the last set of accounts, was north of £21m p/a (reduced to £4m in that set by the sale of Eze but then raised to whatever it's about to be in this set of accounts by whatever we laid out last season).
So, just to get the keys to the door and operate the club for the first 12 months you could be talking about a figure in the region of £44m. That's before you buy a player, add a salary, do anything to the ground, anything. That's just to get the keys to the door and run the club as it's being run now. | | | |
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