| General Election Thread 17:46 - May 22 with 185587 views | loftboy |
This will be the first election that I have no idea who to vote for, will never vote Tory again after the lies during covid where my dad lost his life, don’t trust starmer, would never vote for a bunch of racists like reform , anyone give me a clue?
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| General Election Thread on 11:38 - May 30 with 2001 views | MedwayR |
Interesting to see how my income tax was spent last year. Top 5 areas of spending:
19.8% - Health
19.6% - Welfare
12% National Debt Interest
10.3% - State Pensions
9.9% - Education
So 12% of income tax goes on paying national debt interest, not paying off the debt, just the interest. More than we pay towards things like education, defence, etc. |  |
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| General Election Thread on 11:39 - May 30 with 1997 views | Stainrod |
| General Election Thread on 10:34 - May 30 by Northernr |
I know it's not either or, and I know it's frustrating going out and slogging away for miniscule reward every day while other people scrounge (my first job was a sub-£15k annual salary with a 75 mile round commute on the M1), but it does always surprise me how much anger, coverage, chat this "benefits scroungers" stuff generates versus the fraud and the money being stripped out of the country at the top end through tax dodging, non-dom status etc by the super rich. Or the vast amounts of fraud around Covid, furlough, PPE - Michelle Mone and her like, who are sailing around on yachts never mind sitting around drinking Strongbow Dark Fruits all day. Quick £21bn lost to fraud in that alone they reckon. Or Charlotte Owen getting a lifetime gig in the House of Lords at 28 at our expense for reasons I couldn't possibly speculate on.
I mean, look at the money that's been stripped out of the water industry over decades, and the state of it now. We're 14 pages into this thread (which has gone pretty much as expected to this point) and nobody's really talking about how, in 2024, when we flush our toilet it goes in the bloody Thames!! Let's go for a nice walk by the river darling, we might see your tampon again. You go to the beach with your kids and your beer sht from the night before is there waiting for you. And those companies have bled billions out of that industry rather than invest in its infrastructure.
I don't know, isn't that more important, more financially damaging, to our country than somebody on a council estate with a big TV?
It makes me a lot angrier anyway. So much so that I've got involved in the thread when I swore to myself I wouldn't.
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You are 100% right.
Re the water companies the Lib Dems have made this one of their big policies and is a factor in why I will be voting for them.
The Tory/ covid fraud - amazes me people just shrug about that.
Re the Amazons and non-doms not paying tax - I think the reason there is not public anger is because most people are simply unaware, and those that are don't really know how to protest about it.
The guy in the next door council flat apparently taking the piss out of the benefits system is very visible to people - Amazon and their like shuffling billions of untaxed profit out of our country isn't. Poor people rob poor people not the rich, and poor people complain about other poor people. It was ever thus sadly. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 12:08 - May 30 with 1909 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| General Election Thread on 11:35 - May 30 by Clive_Anderson |
I think that's without pensions, it's about £260bn for both pensions and benefits, but there's also some benefits in the separate "protection" category, so about £150bn in benefits in total. |
Can I just say Clive, that this is the best natured interaction me and you have ever had on LfW.
Long may it continue. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 12:18 - May 30 with 1871 views | E17hoop |
| General Election Thread on 11:39 - May 30 by Stainrod |
You are 100% right.
Re the water companies the Lib Dems have made this one of their big policies and is a factor in why I will be voting for them.
The Tory/ covid fraud - amazes me people just shrug about that.
Re the Amazons and non-doms not paying tax - I think the reason there is not public anger is because most people are simply unaware, and those that are don't really know how to protest about it.
The guy in the next door council flat apparently taking the piss out of the benefits system is very visible to people - Amazon and their like shuffling billions of untaxed profit out of our country isn't. Poor people rob poor people not the rich, and poor people complain about other poor people. It was ever thus sadly. |
My Mum didn't speak to me for a while after I highlighted I probably paid more tax than the owner of the paper she reads every day, the Daily Mail, because he has non-dom status. |  |
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| General Election Thread on 12:30 - May 30 with 1820 views | Northernr |
| General Election Thread on 11:35 - May 30 by Clive_Anderson |
I think that's without pensions, it's about £260bn for both pensions and benefits, but there's also some benefits in the separate "protection" category, so about £150bn in benefits in total. |
Within that figure though do we know the divide between genuine and dodgy claims? If you’re telling me we’re paying the entire £150bn for fit and able ppl to sit on their arse chuffing away on state-bought fags and punching out multiple wnkr kids to terrorise their estate and smash up Foot Locker en masse then I’m right with you.
Of course the figure is growing. You’ve got an ageing population who can’t get GP appointments and have to wait months and years for hospital operations. Again, my personal opinion, a more important issue/problem than scrounging. Though I suppose it’s all linked, as this discussion is proving. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 12:40 - May 30 with 1758 views | Gus_iom |
I suppose the thing about fraud, though, is you don't know its fraudulent until you uncover it - how lo g did this Bulgarian gang go on for? | | | |
| General Election Thread on 12:42 - May 30 with 1749 views | JamesB1979 |
| General Election Thread on 12:30 - May 30 by Northernr |
Within that figure though do we know the divide between genuine and dodgy claims? If you’re telling me we’re paying the entire £150bn for fit and able ppl to sit on their arse chuffing away on state-bought fags and punching out multiple wnkr kids to terrorise their estate and smash up Foot Locker en masse then I’m right with you.
Of course the figure is growing. You’ve got an ageing population who can’t get GP appointments and have to wait months and years for hospital operations. Again, my personal opinion, a more important issue/problem than scrounging. Though I suppose it’s all linked, as this discussion is proving. |
Sorry to jump in and I didn’t want to post any strong opinion on this thread but it’s more the increase in people claiming and the long term sickness. It’s gone up by 800,000 from 2019 to 2.8million. I totally get that there are plenty of people that can’t work and they should be looked after. But 2.8 million people of our work force? It’s systematic of the way we are. It’s always someone else’s fault. Even the work force, it’s all this working from home stuff and this ridiculous claim that it’s much harder life nowadays. Absolute nonsense. Life can be tough but people should just get on with it. The tax dodgers at the top, the lazy self-entitled benefit cheats and it’s the rest of us who has to pay for it all. | | | |
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| General Election Thread on 12:58 - May 30 with 1696 views | QPR_Jim |
| General Election Thread on 11:19 - May 30 by SheffieldHoop |
Didn't they just complete the new Thames super sewer? That cost billions, have they turned it on yet? Also wouldn't they be pumping the waste out at Beckton? And it flows out to sea from there? Strongly doubt anybody walking along the river in Richmond is going to see a floater
I'm interested to read more about this though, the reading I've done so far implies it's nowhere near as big an issue as you are implying here, but I know echo chambers have that kind of effect which is why it's good to have these threads on here. |
I think the issues are greater in certain areas. They recently did a survey of the number of discharges per year into rivers and seas from the various water companies and I think the worst was up at 300+, so nearly every day just flowing untreated out into the environment.
It certainly seems to have got worse recently where I am in the South East with regular reports of beaches being shut or swimmers getting sick, beaches losing blue flag status etc. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 13:11 - May 30 with 1652 views | loftboy |
| General Election Thread on 12:58 - May 30 by QPR_Jim |
I think the issues are greater in certain areas. They recently did a survey of the number of discharges per year into rivers and seas from the various water companies and I think the worst was up at 300+, so nearly every day just flowing untreated out into the environment.
It certainly seems to have got worse recently where I am in the South East with regular reports of beaches being shut or swimmers getting sick, beaches losing blue flag status etc. |
Here in Suffolk Anglian water have said they’ll clean up the water but customers have to pay for it despite them paying millions in dividends to their shareholders and not repairing the sewers, the North Sea is unswimmable at the moment. | |
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| General Election Thread on 13:14 - May 30 with 1626 views | SheffieldHoop |
Sorry but a random corporation managing their tax affairs in a way that means they only pay in the Republic of Ireland or something.......is not as egregious as the government forcibly taking money out of my wages every month and carelessly giving it away to people who live in the same block of flats as me but can't be bothered to work - It's just not. I'd much rather my taxes are spent on Defence or R&D investments than benefits for people who cba.
Corps avoiding tax is annoying, but tax is highly complicated, the people who write the laws often end up advising the corporations on how to avoid them anyway, how are we supposed to prevent that? Taxing amazon on products manufactured in China, Shipped via Hong Kong & Netherlands, sold in UK.....not that straight forward. Businesses create jobs, jobs pay salaries, and salaries = PAYE cows to milk. That's the preferred model because it actually works. |  |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| General Election Thread on 13:17 - May 30 with 1608 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 12:58 - May 30 by QPR_Jim |
I think the issues are greater in certain areas. They recently did a survey of the number of discharges per year into rivers and seas from the various water companies and I think the worst was up at 300+, so nearly every day just flowing untreated out into the environment.
It certainly seems to have got worse recently where I am in the South East with regular reports of beaches being shut or swimmers getting sick, beaches losing blue flag status etc. |
Isn't this also partly a result of us just experiencing the wettest winter on record? Along with a booming population. More people = More sewage. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 13:24 - May 30 with 1566 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| General Election Thread on 12:58 - May 30 by QPR_Jim |
I think the issues are greater in certain areas. They recently did a survey of the number of discharges per year into rivers and seas from the various water companies and I think the worst was up at 300+, so nearly every day just flowing untreated out into the environment.
It certainly seems to have got worse recently where I am in the South East with regular reports of beaches being shut or swimmers getting sick, beaches losing blue flag status etc. |
Thames Super Sewer won't help Windemere!
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/nov/16/sewage-dumps-windermere-data [Post edited 30 May 13:24]
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| General Election Thread on 13:39 - May 30 with 1507 views | Stainrod |
| General Election Thread on 13:14 - May 30 by SheffieldHoop |
Sorry but a random corporation managing their tax affairs in a way that means they only pay in the Republic of Ireland or something.......is not as egregious as the government forcibly taking money out of my wages every month and carelessly giving it away to people who live in the same block of flats as me but can't be bothered to work - It's just not. I'd much rather my taxes are spent on Defence or R&D investments than benefits for people who cba.
Corps avoiding tax is annoying, but tax is highly complicated, the people who write the laws often end up advising the corporations on how to avoid them anyway, how are we supposed to prevent that? Taxing amazon on products manufactured in China, Shipped via Hong Kong & Netherlands, sold in UK.....not that straight forward. Businesses create jobs, jobs pay salaries, and salaries = PAYE cows to milk. That's the preferred model because it actually works. |
You are right to the extent it is complex but the fact remains that Amazon's net sales in the UK in 2023 were $33.6bn. Take the point that a lot of this is selling products made in China etc but its not insignificant that multi-national giants are not paying tax in the countries where they make their profits. Instead they are able to cherry pick the cheapest place to register for tax. These global giants are now more powerful than countries. The EU is belatedly trying to tackle this but Brexit Britain has rolled over and there is little debate about breaking up, taxing or regulating huge foreign monopolies such as Google. Every time someone in the UK searches for something on Google, a list of companies will crop up and Google might charge the four companies at the top of that list anything up to about £300 per click. Just imagine how many such clicks there are a day in the UK. Little of that money is coming back into the UK. We actually need stronger international government - such as through the EU - not less of it, because in an entirely unregulated global free-for-all its mainly the American giants that are winning. There are 7 US companies that are EACH worth more than the entire stock market of any European country including ours. Its not just about tax and regulation, of course: we in Britain need to be much better in investing in promising British companies, but it needs to be part of the solution. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 13:46 - May 30 with 1459 views | Clive_Anderson |
| General Election Thread on 12:30 - May 30 by Northernr |
Within that figure though do we know the divide between genuine and dodgy claims? If you’re telling me we’re paying the entire £150bn for fit and able ppl to sit on their arse chuffing away on state-bought fags and punching out multiple wnkr kids to terrorise their estate and smash up Foot Locker en masse then I’m right with you.
Of course the figure is growing. You’ve got an ageing population who can’t get GP appointments and have to wait months and years for hospital operations. Again, my personal opinion, a more important issue/problem than scrounging. Though I suppose it’s all linked, as this discussion is proving. |
I don't really see this big divide between genuine and fraudulent claims, the issue is that people are perfectly entitled to claim benefits which they see as a more attractive option than working.
As I say if I lost my job I'd probably be tempted to do it myself, why bother with all the hassle and stress of working every day when I could instead just cut my outgoings a bit, get some benefits and spend my day playing with my son or walking my dog. Of course I'd still have to try and fit in my regular vandalism of high street shoe shops.
The lack of GP appointments is at least partly due to the increase in population and the lack of tax receipts due to the above problem. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 13:50 - May 30 with 1438 views | dmm |
| General Election Thread on 13:14 - May 30 by SheffieldHoop |
Sorry but a random corporation managing their tax affairs in a way that means they only pay in the Republic of Ireland or something.......is not as egregious as the government forcibly taking money out of my wages every month and carelessly giving it away to people who live in the same block of flats as me but can't be bothered to work - It's just not. I'd much rather my taxes are spent on Defence or R&D investments than benefits for people who cba.
Corps avoiding tax is annoying, but tax is highly complicated, the people who write the laws often end up advising the corporations on how to avoid them anyway, how are we supposed to prevent that? Taxing amazon on products manufactured in China, Shipped via Hong Kong & Netherlands, sold in UK.....not that straight forward. Businesses create jobs, jobs pay salaries, and salaries = PAYE cows to milk. That's the preferred model because it actually works. |
I did not mention tax avoidance but tax fraud. They are two different things.
Tax avoidance (legal) is estimated to be around £1.4 billion and tax evasion (illegal) around £4.7 billion. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 13:53 - May 30 with 1428 views | Stainrod |
| General Election Thread on 13:46 - May 30 by Clive_Anderson |
I don't really see this big divide between genuine and fraudulent claims, the issue is that people are perfectly entitled to claim benefits which they see as a more attractive option than working.
As I say if I lost my job I'd probably be tempted to do it myself, why bother with all the hassle and stress of working every day when I could instead just cut my outgoings a bit, get some benefits and spend my day playing with my son or walking my dog. Of course I'd still have to try and fit in my regular vandalism of high street shoe shops.
The lack of GP appointments is at least partly due to the increase in population and the lack of tax receipts due to the above problem. |
I think we need benefits. Personally I don't want to live in a country where I can eat nice food but there are kids going hungry. That happens to some extent already and would only get worse if we reverted to a Victorian era "survival of the fittest." But I do think the benefits system needs to be improved so it incentives work more - it might cost the state more in the short term but if people were incentivised back into work it might help the problem described of long-term unemployment (eg they could keep their unemployment pay for a couple of months, or they would continue to get a proportion of it while they were earning under x amount) | | | |
| General Election Thread on 13:53 - May 30 with 1420 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 13:50 - May 30 by dmm |
I did not mention tax avoidance but tax fraud. They are two different things.
Tax avoidance (legal) is estimated to be around £1.4 billion and tax evasion (illegal) around £4.7 billion. |
What's that got to do with the general election though? HMRC collects taxes, not MPs. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| General Election Thread on 13:55 - May 30 with 1414 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 13:39 - May 30 by Stainrod |
You are right to the extent it is complex but the fact remains that Amazon's net sales in the UK in 2023 were $33.6bn. Take the point that a lot of this is selling products made in China etc but its not insignificant that multi-national giants are not paying tax in the countries where they make their profits. Instead they are able to cherry pick the cheapest place to register for tax. These global giants are now more powerful than countries. The EU is belatedly trying to tackle this but Brexit Britain has rolled over and there is little debate about breaking up, taxing or regulating huge foreign monopolies such as Google. Every time someone in the UK searches for something on Google, a list of companies will crop up and Google might charge the four companies at the top of that list anything up to about £300 per click. Just imagine how many such clicks there are a day in the UK. Little of that money is coming back into the UK. We actually need stronger international government - such as through the EU - not less of it, because in an entirely unregulated global free-for-all its mainly the American giants that are winning. There are 7 US companies that are EACH worth more than the entire stock market of any European country including ours. Its not just about tax and regulation, of course: we in Britain need to be much better in investing in promising British companies, but it needs to be part of the solution. |
How many people do Amazon or Google employ in the UK? How much tax do those people pay? A little bit unfair to exclude that from your calculations IMO | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| General Election Thread on 14:00 - May 30 with 1396 views | loftupper |
| General Election Thread on 10:13 - May 30 by Clive_Anderson |
It doesn't have to add up to the party life does it?
It just has to be better than working a minimum wage job which would be the alternative for a lot of people who then think "fck that" and then you have mass immigration to fill the jobs that aren't worth doing for the locals.
Also benefits are inflation linked and most jobs are not, so more and more people are being dragged into "why bother" zone every year which makes this problem even worse.
A job has to pay significantly better than benefits to be worth doing, because the costs associated with working (work clothes, commuting costs, lunch out etc.) need to be deducted and more importantly 50 hours of your week doing something you probably don't like need to be rewarded. |
Large amount of people who still see no value in a free education up to the age 18. So many people without any valuable qualifications, this is where as a Country we will lose. Parents who barely finished school themselves are rarely going to push their kids into getting a decent education. It might have worked for the grand parents and parents generation, leave school with nothing but get a job that can still afford them to buy a house etc, if they 'work hard'.
As to the point about minimum wage being less than what people get on benefits, surely the answer there is to give people a living wage if they are working. One that allows them to both pay their rent and eat. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 14:06 - May 30 with 1358 views | plasmahoop |
| General Election Thread on 12:42 - May 30 by JamesB1979 |
Sorry to jump in and I didn’t want to post any strong opinion on this thread but it’s more the increase in people claiming and the long term sickness. It’s gone up by 800,000 from 2019 to 2.8million. I totally get that there are plenty of people that can’t work and they should be looked after. But 2.8 million people of our work force? It’s systematic of the way we are. It’s always someone else’s fault. Even the work force, it’s all this working from home stuff and this ridiculous claim that it’s much harder life nowadays. Absolute nonsense. Life can be tough but people should just get on with it. The tax dodgers at the top, the lazy self-entitled benefit cheats and it’s the rest of us who has to pay for it all. |
The incoming labour government should be looking at all of this. Given that theyve pledged not to put up income tax or national insurance (beer and petrol tax rises here we go,) and there are huge demands on public services, it would make their life a hell of a lot easier if they can crack down on benefits, tax dodging, everything being discussed here | | | |
| General Election Thread on 14:09 - May 30 with 1352 views | Stainrod |
| General Election Thread on 13:55 - May 30 by SheffieldHoop |
How many people do Amazon or Google employ in the UK? How much tax do those people pay? A little bit unfair to exclude that from your calculations IMO |
Where did I exclude it? Naturally big companies contribute to the economy, but why should their staff pay more in UK tax than the billionaire shareholders? | | | |
| General Election Thread on 14:14 - May 30 with 1333 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 14:09 - May 30 by Stainrod |
Where did I exclude it? Naturally big companies contribute to the economy, but why should their staff pay more in UK tax than the billionaire shareholders? |
How are you measuring the taxable wealth of "billionaire shareholders" though? Seems like you want to tax their net worth rather than their actual income, which obviously is a short-sighted strategy that comes with diminishing returns. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| General Election Thread on 14:16 - May 30 with 1326 views | Stainrod |
| General Election Thread on 14:14 - May 30 by SheffieldHoop |
How are you measuring the taxable wealth of "billionaire shareholders" though? Seems like you want to tax their net worth rather than their actual income, which obviously is a short-sighted strategy that comes with diminishing returns. |
I've said repeatedly I want to tax the profit their companies make in the UK. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 14:18 - May 30 with 1309 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 14:16 - May 30 by Stainrod |
I've said repeatedly I want to tax the profit their companies make in the UK. |
We do. The reason they move profits elsewhere and pay their taxes elsewhere is precisely because we tax their profits at a rate the multi-nationals deem uncompetitive. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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