| General Election Thread 17:46 - May 22 with 106097 views | loftboy |
This will be the first election that I have no idea who to vote for, will never vote Tory again after the lies during covid where my dad lost his life, don’t trust starmer, would never vote for a bunch of racists like reform , anyone give me a clue?
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| General Election Thread on 02:17 - Jun 13 with 1682 views | SydneyRs |
| General Election Thread on 16:05 - Jun 12 by HAYESBOY |
To re-join the Single Market it would mean having freedom of movement as well. This seems to be a red line for Brexiteers. I would also say you would need to be part of the Customs Union as well. Another red line.
Lib Dems can state they want to re-join the Single Market but they don't say the other parts out loud, because as you say, the predominantly right wing media would hound them and anyone else proposing re-joining. |
8 years since the referendum.
I understand that many wanted to see an end to freedom of movement, but with an expectation that it would reduce immigration. This hasn't happened and more people than ever are coming in. Net gain, zero.
On the other hand loss of freedom of movement for British people is a great loss, especially for younger people that might want to live and work around Europe but also those who might retire overseas. Not to mention the increased hassle getting through customs when holidaying. I got an Irish passport due to my heritage and can also get them for my kids if they choose to spend time in Europe.
The UK has really shot itself in the foot here. The reduced immigration has not happened but all the EU benefits have been lost. However, we are still in the phase where "the 17.4 million" and screams about democracy will come from much of the media if anyone tries to touch it. So Labour won't as it might give the tories the only chance they have to gain ground. Also people are just tired of the subject.
I suspect it will be at least 5 more years before anything might change. By then one non binding vote will have determined an outcome for nearly 15 years. Bet the tories wish they could have been given that timeframe after winning the last GE. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 02:19 - Jun 13 with 1674 views | SydneyRs |
| General Election Thread on 16:05 - Jun 12 by essextaxiboy |
Labour are not talking about it because their lead would disappear within days .
If they thought it would get support why not shout it from the rooftops? |
The media. Who have currently given up on the tories but would see hope if this issue got touched. The tide is turning but they've decided not enough yet to risk it. If the media was more balanced I suspect it might be different. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 02:29 - Jun 13 with 1668 views | SydneyRs |
| General Election Thread on 17:17 - Jun 12 by Stainrod |
Yes although the irony is that six years on from Brexit immigration is at record levels and rising.
Even before Brexit just over 50% of our immigration came from outside the EU.
So yes the single market would come with freedom of movement but if any govt of whatever persuasion really wanted to cut down on immigration they could by ending all the other freedom of movement deals we have with the likes of Tunisia and many other countries. But the truth is with an ageing population, sickness levels through the roof and a major skills shortage any govt is going to allow immigration. So if you have immigration you might as well have it from Europe IMHO where the population tends to be better educated and the incomers have been proven to be a net positive to the economy. Plus you then obvs can get the benefit of the single market.
I agree with you about the customs union as well btw - but you can imagine what a field day the Mail etc would have if we rejoined that. I have no doubt that Brexit will eventually be reversed but it will probably have to be in stages and likely take decades. |
This is often overlooked. Govts are dependent on immigration for labour. This is as true in the US and Australia (where immigration numbers are also high) as in the UK.
Ageing populations plus declining birth rates in western countries are a problem and this has been known for a long time. If nothing is done you are left with a huge amount of the population over retirement age and a dwindling workforce/tax base funding pensions.
Something has to give if you want a functioning economy including retirement income for those who depend on it. Either its no/reduced pension (given the voting power of this group, not a real option), extortionate taxation to fund it on a resentful workforce or you bring people of working age in.
The chosen solution is to bring in workers from outside to fill the gap and at the same time keep labour costs low to make your economic management look better. So the dream of ending or significantly reducing immigration is just that, a dream.
One of the many reasons why brexit was such a massive con. The immigrants will still come, just from somewhere else and judging by the amount of anti Islamic sentiment I see, a lot who voted leave would actually prefer to see Europeans coming in. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 06:14 - Jun 13 with 1570 views | Lblock |
| General Election Thread on 02:29 - Jun 13 by SydneyRs |
This is often overlooked. Govts are dependent on immigration for labour. This is as true in the US and Australia (where immigration numbers are also high) as in the UK.
Ageing populations plus declining birth rates in western countries are a problem and this has been known for a long time. If nothing is done you are left with a huge amount of the population over retirement age and a dwindling workforce/tax base funding pensions.
Something has to give if you want a functioning economy including retirement income for those who depend on it. Either its no/reduced pension (given the voting power of this group, not a real option), extortionate taxation to fund it on a resentful workforce or you bring people of working age in.
The chosen solution is to bring in workers from outside to fill the gap and at the same time keep labour costs low to make your economic management look better. So the dream of ending or significantly reducing immigration is just that, a dream.
One of the many reasons why brexit was such a massive con. The immigrants will still come, just from somewhere else and judging by the amount of anti Islamic sentiment I see, a lot who voted leave would actually prefer to see Europeans coming in. |
Yes this has worked really well for Germany……..have a look at the decline in their economy and their society and a massive reason for it.
Immigration is certainly a good thing.
It needs to have strict rules and controls though. That’s what made Australia strong for years (although they let all sorts in now  )
The upshot is there’s no possible solution to this now as it’s uncontrollable in this country and across Europe due to many factors |  |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| General Election Thread on 07:32 - Jun 13 with 1458 views | essextaxiboy |
| General Election Thread on 02:17 - Jun 13 by SydneyRs |
8 years since the referendum.
I understand that many wanted to see an end to freedom of movement, but with an expectation that it would reduce immigration. This hasn't happened and more people than ever are coming in. Net gain, zero.
On the other hand loss of freedom of movement for British people is a great loss, especially for younger people that might want to live and work around Europe but also those who might retire overseas. Not to mention the increased hassle getting through customs when holidaying. I got an Irish passport due to my heritage and can also get them for my kids if they choose to spend time in Europe.
The UK has really shot itself in the foot here. The reduced immigration has not happened but all the EU benefits have been lost. However, we are still in the phase where "the 17.4 million" and screams about democracy will come from much of the media if anyone tries to touch it. So Labour won't as it might give the tories the only chance they have to gain ground. Also people are just tired of the subject.
I suspect it will be at least 5 more years before anything might change. By then one non binding vote will have determined an outcome for nearly 15 years. Bet the tories wish they could have been given that timeframe after winning the last GE. |
You miss the point on immigration , complete freedom of movement means that you cant plan health education or housing requirements . Its impossible because you just dont know the numbers.
You also cannot control the skills levels , you might get baristas when you need midwives , or bricklayers when you are crying out for electricians , its pot luck . Its really not about the numbers IMO .
As for border control , I have a seriously unwell relation in Spain , I visit Madrid regularly . I honestly have seen no difference at the border . I have a son living and working in Zurich .
Would you really want to live in a country where the Government give you a vote on something then ignores it because "they know better "? What if next time your vote is on the winning side ? |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 07:42 - Jun 13 with 1434 views | dmm |
| General Election Thread on 07:32 - Jun 13 by essextaxiboy |
You miss the point on immigration , complete freedom of movement means that you cant plan health education or housing requirements . Its impossible because you just dont know the numbers.
You also cannot control the skills levels , you might get baristas when you need midwives , or bricklayers when you are crying out for electricians , its pot luck . Its really not about the numbers IMO .
As for border control , I have a seriously unwell relation in Spain , I visit Madrid regularly . I honestly have seen no difference at the border . I have a son living and working in Zurich .
Would you really want to live in a country where the Government give you a vote on something then ignores it because "they know better "? What if next time your vote is on the winning side ? |
Well, so far the Brexit removal of freedom of movement has not provided the controls you specify. What additional measures are you suggesting? |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 07:48 - Jun 13 with 1417 views | QPR_John |
Has anybody asked the simple question "Why the EU". When I voted to join back in the day it was "The Common Market", a free trade area, Why does it need its own civil service, its own government, its own set of commissioners, its own Ambassadors around the world, it even has an ambassador to the UN, its own currency, its own flag, its own anthem, why does it need to act like a country.. There was even talk at one time of an EU army. As far as I know there is no other free trade area that requires the trappings of the EU. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 07:54 - Jun 13 with 1412 views | derbyhoop |
| General Election Thread on 02:29 - Jun 13 by SydneyRs |
This is often overlooked. Govts are dependent on immigration for labour. This is as true in the US and Australia (where immigration numbers are also high) as in the UK.
Ageing populations plus declining birth rates in western countries are a problem and this has been known for a long time. If nothing is done you are left with a huge amount of the population over retirement age and a dwindling workforce/tax base funding pensions.
Something has to give if you want a functioning economy including retirement income for those who depend on it. Either its no/reduced pension (given the voting power of this group, not a real option), extortionate taxation to fund it on a resentful workforce or you bring people of working age in.
The chosen solution is to bring in workers from outside to fill the gap and at the same time keep labour costs low to make your economic management look better. So the dream of ending or significantly reducing immigration is just that, a dream.
One of the many reasons why brexit was such a massive con. The immigrants will still come, just from somewhere else and judging by the amount of anti Islamic sentiment I see, a lot who voted leave would actually prefer to see Europeans coming in. |
Its not just Either/Or. There is a 3rd option (see Japan) where the retirement age is increased to 70. Or even higher. |  |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| General Election Thread on 08:23 - Jun 13 with 1364 views | Hunterhoop |
| General Election Thread on 07:54 - Jun 13 by derbyhoop |
Its not just Either/Or. There is a 3rd option (see Japan) where the retirement age is increased to 70. Or even higher. |
Quite. Like so many of our economic and welfare policies, it is outdated. The retirement age was decided when average life expectancy was lower and the demographics of the UK were very different. Why shouldn’t it move out 5 years?
Equally this Triple Lock Plus policy is absolutely bonkers. It basically ensures pensioners win to a greater rate than the working population. Why? It’s a pure political play to buy votes. Frankly the triple lock isn’t sustainable but I can understand how it can be argued to be fair (although many other benefits critical to families aren’t increasing with such a triple lock). Even then though, you need the retirement age to increase, surely?
I must say, I’ve been pretty uninspired by all 3 main parties’ manifestos. Some decent bits but all of them feel like they are tinkering around the edges. The most progressive idea is the Green’s Tax on Assets of £1m and £10m. It probably won’t recover as much as they say. But 1% and 2% seem eminently fair and not sufficient enough to cause a flight of wealth. Footballers aren’t going anywhere are they?! People in their 50s and 60s whose kids and grandparents are in the UK won’t either. And it feels like a more targeted approach than in resin inheritance tax further which impacts far more people. It’s also an important step into taxing assets not just income. With the population demographics mentioned earlier, you simply cannot keep hammering a shrinking proportion of the general public. The sums won’t add up over 10-20 years.
That said. This election is not complex. Anything to get the Tories out. You simply cannot run a country this badly for 14 years and be allowed to remain in power. There had to be accountability in democracy (in anything really), and they need to be held to account. Personally, I think that if you want to use your vote for Reform, Labour, the Lib Dems, the Greens, that’s up to you, and you should be able to do as you like without getting to het up about those that pick one of the other 4 there. What I struggle to understand or justify is anyone voting for the Tories still. Politically and economically Labour and the Tories are almost identical. So if you care about that and also believe in accountability vote Labour. If you care more about the social issues as a reason for voting Tory, go to Reform. If you’re a centrist who votes Tory, vote for the Lib Dem’s. If you have had a political reawakening crack on with the Greens. But I don’t see the Tories offering anything another party isn’t that justifies them not being held to account for a shambolic 14 years. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 08:37 - Jun 13 with 1322 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
Do people really expect bike couriers and hod carriers to graft for 54 years before being able to collect their pension? [Post edited 13 Jun 8:50]
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| General Election Thread on 08:43 - Jun 13 with 1309 views | SydneyRs |
| General Election Thread on 07:54 - Jun 13 by derbyhoop |
Its not just Either/Or. There is a 3rd option (see Japan) where the retirement age is increased to 70. Or even higher. |
Potentially political suicide and you have to have employers that will employ people that age. For many jobs and trades it is simply not realistic.
Also we've reached the point where UK life expectancy is falling, not rising. What a time to be alive (for less years)! [Post edited 13 Jun 8:44]
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| General Election Thread on 08:55 - Jun 13 with 1284 views | essextaxiboy |
| General Election Thread on 07:42 - Jun 13 by dmm |
Well, so far the Brexit removal of freedom of movement has not provided the controls you specify. What additional measures are you suggesting? |
Link working visas issued with career training , subsidise uni and apprenticeships for the skills we are taking from elsewhere . Openly publish the skill we are issuing visas for . It might encourage skilled people to return to that trade .
The Rwanda policy would be ok if the people were quickly processed and flown back here if they can prove who they are and have a valid claim .
Quite happy for the numbers to increase if we need the skills although the double edge is that we deprive another country of those skills .
No more on Brexit from me .. [Post edited 13 Jun 9:49]
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| General Election Thread on 08:57 - Jun 13 with 1272 views | derbyhoop |
| General Election Thread on 08:43 - Jun 13 by SydneyRs |
Potentially political suicide and you have to have employers that will employ people that age. For many jobs and trades it is simply not realistic.
Also we've reached the point where UK life expectancy is falling, not rising. What a time to be alive (for less years)! [Post edited 13 Jun 8:44]
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I never claimed it was a good, or even acceptable, option. But it may prove to be something we'll have to consider. Especially if the other choices are equally unpalatable. | |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| General Election Thread on 08:58 - Jun 13 with 1269 views | loftboy |
| General Election Thread on 07:54 - Jun 13 by derbyhoop |
Its not just Either/Or. There is a 3rd option (see Japan) where the retirement age is increased to 70. Or even higher. |
Don’t think I’ll be physically capable of doing my job at 70!
But all saying seeing as people are leaving full time education several years later than our generation then maybe there. Could be a sliding scale heading towards that age over the next couple of decades. IE lots of people my age left school at 16 l, or retirement age is now 67 so if you leave school at 18 it would be 69 etc. that means we all work the same length of time. | |
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| General Election Thread on 09:11 - Jun 13 with 1251 views | Watford_Ranger |
| General Election Thread on 02:19 - Jun 13 by SydneyRs |
The media. Who have currently given up on the tories but would see hope if this issue got touched. The tide is turning but they've decided not enough yet to risk it. If the media was more balanced I suspect it might be different. |
Yes we really need a more Tory-friendly media. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 09:22 - Jun 13 with 1222 views | Rangersw12 |
| General Election Thread on 21:06 - Jun 12 by Northernr |
Can we get to the bit where somebody in the Sky call centre has a look into his file and leaks that he was a subscriber all along? WITH MOVIES. |
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| General Election Thread on 10:43 - Jun 13 with 1115 views | dmm |
| General Election Thread on 08:55 - Jun 13 by essextaxiboy |
Link working visas issued with career training , subsidise uni and apprenticeships for the skills we are taking from elsewhere . Openly publish the skill we are issuing visas for . It might encourage skilled people to return to that trade .
The Rwanda policy would be ok if the people were quickly processed and flown back here if they can prove who they are and have a valid claim .
Quite happy for the numbers to increase if we need the skills although the double edge is that we deprive another country of those skills .
No more on Brexit from me .. [Post edited 13 Jun 9:49]
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Some interesting ideas there, essexboy, and I can see your logic. It's good you highlight the important issue of taking skilled workers from other countries - we've been taking nurses from African nations, for example, for many years and it's very wrong. However, what would happen to those who do not have the skills we want but, say, have relatives in the UK?
The incredibly expensive, ineffective and inhumane Rwanda policy is an absolute non starter for me. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 11:49 - Jun 13 with 992 views | LazyFan |
| General Election Thread on 22:21 - Jun 12 by QPR_John |
It seems Starmer did not think Labour would win the last election. But I suppose that is consistent as he did not believe in the manifesto as well. Seems he was economical with the truth in 2019 wonder what he is not telling us in 2024. [Post edited 12 Jun 22:22]
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As I keep saying.
TFS = Two Faced Starmer |  |
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| General Election Thread on 12:28 - Jun 13 with 912 views | Stainrod |
Even raising the retirement age to 70 would not cut it, the need for labour is vast for all the reasons touched on.
Its ironic that those who voted Brexit were on average much older than those who voted against.
Many - probably most - who voted for Brexit wanted to cut immigration, which has since soared.
The only way we could survive with low immigration is if we forced those pensioners to work basically forever, get rid of the triple lock, slash benefits and spending on the NHS.
Would they be so keen on Brexit then? Its funny how those who complain about immigration don't complain specifically about the immigrant nurse caring for them, the Amazon delivery driver bringing them their parcel, the waiter serving them their lunch, the Dane laying on a goal. They only complain about immigrants in the abstract, and would probably be the first to grumble "the country is going to the dogs" if no one was around to do all the jobs. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 13:18 - Jun 13 with 827 views | essextaxiboy |
| General Election Thread on 10:43 - Jun 13 by dmm |
Some interesting ideas there, essexboy, and I can see your logic. It's good you highlight the important issue of taking skilled workers from other countries - we've been taking nurses from African nations, for example, for many years and it's very wrong. However, what would happen to those who do not have the skills we want but, say, have relatives in the UK?
The incredibly expensive, ineffective and inhumane Rwanda policy is an absolute non starter for me. |
Is it the idea of processing claimants in a different country unacceptable or is it that it is Rwanda ?
On the question of family members seeking to come here , firstly if they have a genuine claim have some evidence to prove it They should be claimed by a family member already legally resident here with a record of legal settlement or birthright , contribution and without a criminal record . That person would act as an accountable sponsor and guarantor . For those without skills , free training should be in place after a very short settling in period ..IMO | | | |
| General Election Thread on 13:26 - Jun 13 with 796 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 08:43 - Jun 13 by SydneyRs |
Potentially political suicide and you have to have employers that will employ people that age. For many jobs and trades it is simply not realistic.
Also we've reached the point where UK life expectancy is falling, not rising. What a time to be alive (for less years)! [Post edited 13 Jun 8:44]
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Life expectancy is falling! Must be the Tories defunding the NHS!
Nah, we just had a pandemic (Thanks for that, China) the life expectancy has fallen globally. The global average is down 1.6 years, In the UK it's 1.2 years for females and 0.8 for males. |  |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| General Election Thread on 13:33 - Jun 13 with 756 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 12:28 - Jun 13 by Stainrod |
Even raising the retirement age to 70 would not cut it, the need for labour is vast for all the reasons touched on.
Its ironic that those who voted Brexit were on average much older than those who voted against.
Many - probably most - who voted for Brexit wanted to cut immigration, which has since soared.
The only way we could survive with low immigration is if we forced those pensioners to work basically forever, get rid of the triple lock, slash benefits and spending on the NHS.
Would they be so keen on Brexit then? Its funny how those who complain about immigration don't complain specifically about the immigrant nurse caring for them, the Amazon delivery driver bringing them their parcel, the waiter serving them their lunch, the Dane laying on a goal. They only complain about immigrants in the abstract, and would probably be the first to grumble "the country is going to the dogs" if no one was around to do all the jobs. |
"Many - probably most - who voted for Brexit wanted to cut immigration, which has since soared."
Why do people seem to accept, or even gleefully point this out? All it means is that the people have voted for something and the opposite has happened. Do you really expect people are just going to be content with that? When the UK Public votes against immigration, consistently, for 20-odd years and the numbers just keep going up.....Do you really think that is good for democracy? Like maybe high immigration suits your personal agenda - But in the bigger picture, does it not concern you? Does it not make you wonder what might happen next when the politicians treat their electorate with so much contempt? | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| General Election Thread on 13:35 - Jun 13 with 746 views | Juzzie |
| General Election Thread on 12:28 - Jun 13 by Stainrod |
Even raising the retirement age to 70 would not cut it, the need for labour is vast for all the reasons touched on.
Its ironic that those who voted Brexit were on average much older than those who voted against.
Many - probably most - who voted for Brexit wanted to cut immigration, which has since soared.
The only way we could survive with low immigration is if we forced those pensioners to work basically forever, get rid of the triple lock, slash benefits and spending on the NHS.
Would they be so keen on Brexit then? Its funny how those who complain about immigration don't complain specifically about the immigrant nurse caring for them, the Amazon delivery driver bringing them their parcel, the waiter serving them their lunch, the Dane laying on a goal. They only complain about immigrants in the abstract, and would probably be the first to grumble "the country is going to the dogs" if no one was around to do all the jobs. |
I think there's a difference between legal/visa applied etc immigration and those turning up on a dingy.
It's probably the latter that they get all frothy about. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 13:38 - Jun 13 with 730 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 13:35 - Jun 13 by Juzzie |
I think there's a difference between legal/visa applied etc immigration and those turning up on a dingy.
It's probably the latter that they get all frothy about. |
I think it's both, to be honest. For example, Valdo Calocane was here legally. I don't think he should've been. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| General Election Thread on 13:48 - Jun 13 with 675 views | Stainrod |
| General Election Thread on 13:33 - Jun 13 by SheffieldHoop |
"Many - probably most - who voted for Brexit wanted to cut immigration, which has since soared."
Why do people seem to accept, or even gleefully point this out? All it means is that the people have voted for something and the opposite has happened. Do you really expect people are just going to be content with that? When the UK Public votes against immigration, consistently, for 20-odd years and the numbers just keep going up.....Do you really think that is good for democracy? Like maybe high immigration suits your personal agenda - But in the bigger picture, does it not concern you? Does it not make you wonder what might happen next when the politicians treat their electorate with so much contempt? |
You miss my point. I am saying the people who voted for Brexit and for the Tories at successive general elections to reduce immigration have got the exact opposite of what they were promised.
Its not my job to apologise for that - it wasn't me and Remainers like me making the promise! | | | |
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