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Posted with some trepidation as I know Clive doesn’t like multis. Understandably overlooked by the national media, but it seems like the Russians are completely caving in, rope-a-doped as effectively as von Paulus in 1942. Who knows what this might lead to?
Some saying it's Russian, some saying its Ukranian. Whatever the yanks say it is, the opposite will be true. As someone else said, follow the money.
I urge everyone to watch this documentary, then have another think about whether you should ever again believe a single word the US and UK govts and the media tell you. Lots of former main stream journos admitting they were manipulated by the govt and therefore failed to do their jobs properly
It's absolutely disgusting what the US and UK govts get up to, and how they manipulate the press to manipulate the public. This documentary shows it as being even worse than even I had imagined.
I don't agree with what Russia is doing, but the US (and its lapdog in crime, the UK) has deliberately created the current situation and we (the public) should be demanding our immediate withdrawal from any involvement at all.
[Post edited 15 Nov 2022 21:26]
yep... people on here (as in all of society) have strong views and when it’s like that it is difficult to change them. the US, Britain, Russia (in fact all major superpowers) have no doubt got blood on their hands. However, Ukraine is in the news right now and in this particular instance I do believe the Ukrainian people have every right to defend and re-claim their annexed land. The only way they can do this is if Nato countries supply them with high tech weaponry. Also it’s difficult to see how anyone can defend invading a sovereign country, bombing civilian infra-structure, murdering and torturing innocent people and conscripting criminals to do these tasks.... But these are very strange times we are living in, and everyone has a right to an opinion.
"When all else fails they take you to war" Nobody knows where the Poland missiles came from.Article 5 knee jerk reaction.... somewhere behind all this is an Ernst Stavros Blofeld - esque megalomaniac. Personally I'm fed up with all these old videos pushed as "breaking news". Hell, some of them have got rust on the tanks - and certainly not in flames let alone still smoking.
"When all else fails they take you to war" Nobody knows where the Poland missiles came from.Article 5 knee jerk reaction.... somewhere behind all this is an Ernst Stavros Blofeld - esque megalomaniac. Personally I'm fed up with all these old videos pushed as "breaking news". Hell, some of them have got rust on the tanks - and certainly not in flames let alone still smoking.
I'm sure somebody does know, just that no one will admit it, yet.
if it transpires it wasn't Russia and just an unfortunate accident whilst Ukraine were trying to shoot down Russian bombardment, then Russia can't really get their knickers in a twist when people think it's them considering the way they have conducted themselves the last 9 months. But they will, they'll play the victim.
"When all else fails they take you to war" Nobody knows where the Poland missiles came from.Article 5 knee jerk reaction.... somewhere behind all this is an Ernst Stavros Blofeld - esque megalomaniac. Personally I'm fed up with all these old videos pushed as "breaking news". Hell, some of them have got rust on the tanks - and certainly not in flames let alone still smoking.
OK, I'm going to regret stepping into this cesspit, but for the sake of the forum:
There is no Article 5 knee-jerk reaction.
1. Art 5 has not been triggered. 2. Poland did trigger Art 4 (which is just to discuss things, no more) but has since withdrawn even that 3. Biden, the guy who would decide any reaction, straight away said there wasn't enough information, then said the information suggested it wasn't Russia, and that anyway he's doing nothing until he knows for sure. This is the exact bloody opposite of a knee-jerk reaction. (Presumably anyone who thinks that whatever the US says is the opposite will be along shortly to insist this proves it was Russia all along and we should nuke them, or something equally stupid.)
There is nothing to see here, certainly not an imaginary Blofeld. James Bond is fiction for eff's sake. The war's been going on for 9 months, no British or other NATO soldiers are fighting there, and since Russia is already losing there won't be. No-one is taking us to war.
Now a bit of chat about non-football matters is one thing, probably inevitable while we're waiting for the WC to start, but IMO pushing conspiracy theories and scaremongering have no place here.
OK, I'm going to regret stepping into this cesspit, but for the sake of the forum:
There is no Article 5 knee-jerk reaction.
1. Art 5 has not been triggered. 2. Poland did trigger Art 4 (which is just to discuss things, no more) but has since withdrawn even that 3. Biden, the guy who would decide any reaction, straight away said there wasn't enough information, then said the information suggested it wasn't Russia, and that anyway he's doing nothing until he knows for sure. This is the exact bloody opposite of a knee-jerk reaction. (Presumably anyone who thinks that whatever the US says is the opposite will be along shortly to insist this proves it was Russia all along and we should nuke them, or something equally stupid.)
There is nothing to see here, certainly not an imaginary Blofeld. James Bond is fiction for eff's sake. The war's been going on for 9 months, no British or other NATO soldiers are fighting there, and since Russia is already losing there won't be. No-one is taking us to war.
Now a bit of chat about non-football matters is one thing, probably inevitable while we're waiting for the WC to start, but IMO pushing conspiracy theories and scaremongering have no place here.
Thanks heavens for that (for now).
So what do you make of Zelensky immediately sending out disinformation (he was straight on his green screen telling everyone Russia had attacked Poland and the NATO and the rest of the world needed to attack Russia immediately)? The bloke is an absolute c n u t, and somebody needs to remove him. He's dangerous in the extreme with his big gob, and he's desperately trying to start WW3.
What is the 'end game' in all of this? Neither Ukraine nor Russia can 'win', so we're heading for a stalemate unless and until it erupts into a world war as per Zelensky's wish. Some common sense needs to prevail, and some concessions need to be made on both sides (neither of which can happen with that weapon Zelenksy gobbing off every 5 minutes)
So what do you make of Zelensky immediately sending out disinformation (he was straight on his green screen telling everyone Russia had attacked Poland and the NATO and the rest of the world needed to attack Russia immediately)? The bloke is an absolute c n u t, and somebody needs to remove him. He's dangerous in the extreme with his big gob, and he's desperately trying to start WW3.
What is the 'end game' in all of this? Neither Ukraine nor Russia can 'win', so we're heading for a stalemate unless and until it erupts into a world war as per Zelensky's wish. Some common sense needs to prevail, and some concessions need to be made on both sides (neither of which can happen with that weapon Zelenksy gobbing off every 5 minutes)
[Post edited 16 Nov 2022 14:47]
So what do you make of Putin murdering thousands of Ukrainians?
You have a lot to say about Zelensky, but he is not the guy invading another country, After all Zelensky was offered a free route out for himself by the Americans when the war started, but he stayed. He is also overwhelmingly popular in his homeland. Yet you sit behind your laptop in London (I presume) and call him names and say "Somebody needs to remove him". F'ckin hell. You are on a QPR website calling for a democratically elected leader, hugely popular in his homeland, leading the defence of his country against Putin's murder squads, to be "removed" by "somebody".
One man has the power to stop that war now, guess who that is? It's not the guy begging for support from the west.
OK, I'm going to regret stepping into this cesspit, but for the sake of the forum:
There is no Article 5 knee-jerk reaction.
1. Art 5 has not been triggered. 2. Poland did trigger Art 4 (which is just to discuss things, no more) but has since withdrawn even that 3. Biden, the guy who would decide any reaction, straight away said there wasn't enough information, then said the information suggested it wasn't Russia, and that anyway he's doing nothing until he knows for sure. This is the exact bloody opposite of a knee-jerk reaction. (Presumably anyone who thinks that whatever the US says is the opposite will be along shortly to insist this proves it was Russia all along and we should nuke them, or something equally stupid.)
There is nothing to see here, certainly not an imaginary Blofeld. James Bond is fiction for eff's sake. The war's been going on for 9 months, no British or other NATO soldiers are fighting there, and since Russia is already losing there won't be. No-one is taking us to war.
Now a bit of chat about non-football matters is one thing, probably inevitable while we're waiting for the WC to start, but IMO pushing conspiracy theories and scaremongering have no place here.
Please don't make me have to keep coming back to this thread.
Facebook, Twitter, hundreds of other message boards, several other QPR message boards, will be glad to have some of the content, links and videos being posted on here so please use them. I'm not.
I'd be interested to read from posters on here who have volunteered and gone to join either the Ukrainian Army or the Russian Army and who have first hand knowledge of the sad way one Country and It's people have had to witness their Country, It's people and It's infrastructure being slowly destroyed.
It's so easy to point the finger and shout and holler from the comfort and safety of your boudoir when In actual fact you know f uck all about It.
My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic.
yep... people on here (as in all of society) have strong views and when it’s like that it is difficult to change them. the US, Britain, Russia (in fact all major superpowers) have no doubt got blood on their hands. However, Ukraine is in the news right now and in this particular instance I do believe the Ukrainian people have every right to defend and re-claim their annexed land. The only way they can do this is if Nato countries supply them with high tech weaponry. Also it’s difficult to see how anyone can defend invading a sovereign country, bombing civilian infra-structure, murdering and torturing innocent people and conscripting criminals to do these tasks.... But these are very strange times we are living in, and everyone has a right to an opinion.
"... everyone has a right to an opinion."
True.
But was it a Clint Eastwood line which counseled that "Opinions are like arseholes: everyone has one, but very few bear close scutiny..."?
[Don't mean you 'Rs Holy' btw, even if you may have an appropriate moniker lol]
So what do you make of Zelensky immediately sending out disinformation (he was straight on his green screen telling everyone Russia had attacked Poland and the NATO and the rest of the world needed to attack Russia immediately)? The bloke is an absolute c n u t, and somebody needs to remove him. He's dangerous in the extreme with his big gob, and he's desperately trying to start WW3.
What is the 'end game' in all of this? Neither Ukraine nor Russia can 'win', so we're heading for a stalemate unless and until it erupts into a world war as per Zelensky's wish. Some common sense needs to prevail, and some concessions need to be made on both sides (neither of which can happen with that weapon Zelenksy gobbing off every 5 minutes)
[Post edited 16 Nov 2022 14:47]
So Zelensky's "desperately trying to start WW3." then?
Just listen to yourself.
For he realises, even if you don't, that the first place to be wiped off the face of the Earth in WW3 would be Ukraine.
So what do you make of Putin murdering thousands of Ukrainians?
You have a lot to say about Zelensky, but he is not the guy invading another country, After all Zelensky was offered a free route out for himself by the Americans when the war started, but he stayed. He is also overwhelmingly popular in his homeland. Yet you sit behind your laptop in London (I presume) and call him names and say "Somebody needs to remove him". F'ckin hell. You are on a QPR website calling for a democratically elected leader, hugely popular in his homeland, leading the defence of his country against Putin's murder squads, to be "removed" by "somebody".
One man has the power to stop that war now, guess who that is? It's not the guy begging for support from the west.
Er, you do realise that that report dates from 2014?
And that Zelensky, the world's first Nazi Jewish President (eek!), didn't assume office until 2019?
Or to put it this way, if you believe eg that Tony Blair took us into an illegal war in Iraq, does that mean Rishi Sunak should be held accountable for it?
Er, you do realise that that report dates from 2014?
And that Zelensky, the world's first Nazi Jewish President (eek!), didn't assume office until 2019?
Or to put it this way, if you believe eg that Tony Blair took us into an illegal war in Iraq, does that mean Rishi Sunak should be held accountable for it?
Oh. That makes it alright then, silly me.
What`s the time scale when we should all just forget our past ill`s in history ? Would`nt want to keep flogging that dead horse regarding the likes of Slavery, British empire or god forbid the Holocaust.
'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.'
What`s the time scale when we should all just forget our past ill`s in history ? Would`nt want to keep flogging that dead horse regarding the likes of Slavery, British empire or god forbid the Holocaust.
I don't think anyone on here would condone the use of cluster bombs. I certainly don't.
Think about the circumstances in which Ukraine used them, again, not that using them is acceptable: They were used in a war against a country which had invaded its sovereign territory.
No one is saying Ukraine is perfect, but they were not the aggressor in 2014 and they are not the aggressor now.
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
What`s the time scale when we should all just forget our past ill`s in history ? Would`nt want to keep flogging that dead horse regarding the likes of Slavery, British empire or god forbid the Holocaust.
"Oh. That makes it alright then, silly me."
No, I didn't say that.
But my point is that whatever Ukraine's then President Poroshenko did in 2014 cannot possibly justify what Putin is doing in 2022.
Nor should Zelensky's government be in any way blamed for defending the country against Putin, just because of what a predecessor government, whom they had opposed and replaced, might have done.
But my point is that whatever Ukraine's then President Poroshenko did in 2014 cannot possibly justify what Putin is doing in 2022.
Nor should Zelensky's government be in any way blamed for defending the country against Putin, just because of what a predecessor government, whom they had opposed and replaced, might have done.
You should take up cricket NewBee, you're about 80 not out squire.
So what do you make of Zelensky immediately sending out disinformation (he was straight on his green screen telling everyone Russia had attacked Poland and the NATO and the rest of the world needed to attack Russia immediately)? The bloke is an absolute c n u t, and somebody needs to remove him. He's dangerous in the extreme with his big gob, and he's desperately trying to start WW3.
What is the 'end game' in all of this? Neither Ukraine nor Russia can 'win', so we're heading for a stalemate unless and until it erupts into a world war as per Zelensky's wish. Some common sense needs to prevail, and some concessions need to be made on both sides (neither of which can happen with that weapon Zelenksy gobbing off every 5 minutes)
[Post edited 16 Nov 2022 14:47]
Mate your full of shite , have a look what you just posted .... disgusting.
AND WHEN I DREAM , I DREAM ABOUT YOU AND WHEN I SCREAM I SCREAM ABOUT YOU!!!!!
But in summary it says War is pointless and many innocent people die on both sides.
Err ... yes that's what happens in Wars !!!
But if one side initiates something and the other is passive throughout, can those criticising responses, explain what would happen if the other side remained passive !
Please don't make me have to keep coming back to this thread.
Facebook, Twitter, hundreds of other message boards, several other QPR message boards, will be glad to have some of the content, links and videos being posted on here so please use them. I'm not.
Sorry Clive but I love this messageboard because it’s not just footy related... This kind of debate is what the board is all about... I’ve read posters on other messageboards saying they are jealous of how good Loft For Words is!... Peeps on here just need to keep it civilised.
Yes, Zelensky probably made a bit of a tit of himself but ffs, the guy is presiding over his country being absolutely decimated by a brutal regime so it's understandable that maybe he had a 'moment'. Thankfully there was a collective calm from everyone else to defuse the situation. That's everyone working together unlike said brutal regime which is being controlled by one person who could do anything with no one to stop him.
Zelensky is human after all. People wanting him 'taken out' should try and deal with that situation themselves and see how they mange it.
Most world leaders are a bit 'wobbly', look at the US and our previous two incumbents, so I am aware he's probably no saint either but it's nothing in comparison to Putin who is basically a fascist however much he tries to make everyone think otherwise.
"A system of government led by a dictator who typically rules by forcefully and often violently suppressing opposition and criticism, controlling all industry and commerce, and promoting nationalism and often racism." - I think Putin ticks most of those boxes.
Sorry Clive but I love this messageboard because it’s not just footy related... This kind of debate is what the board is all about... I’ve read posters on other messageboards saying they are jealous of how good Loft For Words is!... Peeps on here just need to keep it civilised.
Well I agree with you which is why the thread is still here, but it's here sans the stuff that's been deleted from it which is the stuff I'm referring to.
You should take up cricket NewBee, you're about 80 not out squire.
Though sadly, Zelensky is a polished turd.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2022 0:15]
I don't understand the cricket analogy, but no matter.
As for Zelensky, he may, in normal circumstances, be just another shady politician. But these aren't normal circumstances (obv).
And I think back to Churchill in this country. There was a lot not to like about Churchill and his character, while he had many blots on his early record eg Gallipoli.
But "Cometh the hour, cometh the man", and just as 1940 was Churchill's hour, so 2022 is Zelensky's. And for me the proof of this is not just in the success which Ukraine has had in defendig their country against enormous odds, but the fact that Zelensky has done so with wide support within Ukraine, including from his former political enemies. This, too, is reminiscent of 1940, when Churchill led the defence of the country at the head of a coalition government
Re this missile which fell on Poland: to my mind, the real point is not that Zelensky jumped the gun - mistakes and misunderstandings invariably happen in war.
Nor is it even that the West promptly spoke up and confirmed it to have been "friendly fire" - though that should be a given.
Rather it is that had the circumstances been reversed, and a Russian missile had fallen on Russian territory, there is ZERO chance that Putin and his thugs would similarly have come clean.
I mean, contrast the difference when eg Russia shot down that Malaysian airliner MH17 in 2014 - they're still denying it. Whereas after the USA shot down Iranian Air Flight 655 in 1988, they admitted their error and paid compensation to Iran.
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