| Ukraine 23:51 - Sep 9 with 77808 views | MrSheen |
Posted with some trepidation as I know Clive doesn’t like multis. Understandably overlooked by the national media, but it seems like the Russians are completely caving in, rope-a-doped as effectively as von Paulus in 1942. Who knows what this might lead to? |  | | |  |
| Ukraine on 14:10 - Nov 17 with 2636 views | Sonofpugwash |
| Ukraine on 12:26 - Nov 17 by NewBee |
Re this missile which fell on Poland: to my mind, the real point is not that Zelensky jumped the gun - mistakes and misunderstandings invariably happen in war.
Nor is it even that the West promptly spoke up and confirmed it to have been "friendly fire" - though that should be a given.
Rather it is that had the circumstances been reversed, and a Russian missile had fallen on Russian territory, there is ZERO chance that Putin and his thugs would similarly have come clean.
I mean, contrast the difference when eg Russia shot down that Malaysian airliner MH17 in 2014 - they're still denying it. Whereas after the USA shot down Iranian Air Flight 655 in 1988, they admitted their error and paid compensation to Iran. |
So you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
Newspapers hysterically trying to make a case for Article 5 and WW3 which what I was banging on about earlier.
But no the Pavlovian misunderstanding holds sway on here.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2022 14:25]
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| Ukraine on 15:10 - Nov 17 with 2532 views | Boston |
| Ukraine on 12:07 - Nov 17 by NewBee |
I don't understand the cricket analogy, but no matter.
As for Zelensky, he may, in normal circumstances, be just another shady politician. But these aren't normal circumstances (obv).
And I think back to Churchill in this country. There was a lot not to like about Churchill and his character, while he had many blots on his early record eg Gallipoli.
But "Cometh the hour, cometh the man", and just as 1940 was Churchill's hour, so 2022 is Zelensky's. And for me the proof of this is not just in the success which Ukraine has had in defendig their country against enormous odds, but the fact that Zelensky has done so with wide support within Ukraine, including from his former political enemies. This, too, is reminiscent of 1940, when Churchill led the defence of the country at the head of a coalition government |
Cricket ref - you were batting well with previous comments.
Zelenskyy, indeed he has become Churchillian in stature, that's the polish on what appears to be(under normal circumstances), the most politically corrupt country in Europe. But, the enemy of our enemy is a friend, so support we must. |  |
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| Ukraine on 15:43 - Nov 17 with 2512 views | swisscottage |
| Ukraine on 14:43 - Nov 16 by The_Beast1976 |
Thanks heavens for that (for now).
So what do you make of Zelensky immediately sending out disinformation (he was straight on his green screen telling everyone Russia had attacked Poland and the NATO and the rest of the world needed to attack Russia immediately)? The bloke is an absolute c n u t, and somebody needs to remove him. He's dangerous in the extreme with his big gob, and he's desperately trying to start WW3.
What is the 'end game' in all of this? Neither Ukraine nor Russia can 'win', so we're heading for a stalemate unless and until it erupts into a world war as per Zelensky's wish. Some common sense needs to prevail, and some concessions need to be made on both sides (neither of which can happen with that weapon Zelenksy gobbing off every 5 minutes) [Post edited 16 Nov 2022 14:47]
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Someone comes into your house with a gun.
Kills your dog.
Sh!ts on your floor
Rapes and skills your first daughter
Sets up shop in your living room.
He continues to taunt you and occasionally shoots through the ceiling into your bedroom where you've barricaded yourself in with the family.
He cuts off the water and electricity and shouts up that he's going to kill you all and take over your house unless you just give it to him .. and then he maybe will kill you and the rest of your family anyway.
Do you give him concession knowing he's just going to come and try and take everything anyway and probably kill or as good as enslave you.
Or do you get out the bigass shotgun your friendly uncle gave you and go to town on the bstrd?
I despise appeasers. They are the enablers of evildoers from Hitler to Stalin and now Putin. | | | |
| Ukraine on 16:52 - Nov 17 with 2445 views | gobbles |
| Ukraine on 15:10 - Nov 17 by Boston |
Cricket ref - you were batting well with previous comments.
Zelenskyy, indeed he has become Churchillian in stature, that's the polish on what appears to be(under normal circumstances), the most politically corrupt country in Europe. But, the enemy of our enemy is a friend, so support we must. |
Ukraine is our friend. Most of the accusations thrown at Zelensky are merely dirt originating in Russia as a means to break alliances with the west and spread on the web or right-wing media by people who use phrases like "MSM". |  | | |
| Ukraine (n/t) on 17:24 - Nov 17 with 2398 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Ukraine on 14:10 - Nov 17 by Sonofpugwash |
So you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
Newspapers hysterically trying to make a case for Article 5 and WW3 which what I was banging on about earlier.
But no the Pavlovian misunderstanding holds sway on here.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2022 14:25]
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Link please or direct quote from any newspaper calling for Article 5 [Post edited 17 Nov 2022 17:28]
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| Ukraine (n/t) on 17:56 - Nov 17 with 2350 views | Juzzie |
| Ukraine (n/t) on 17:24 - Nov 17 by CiderwithRsie |
Link please or direct quote from any newspaper calling for Article 5 [Post edited 17 Nov 2022 17:28]
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I've had a look and can't find any.
The Mail, The Sun, The Mirror, The Metro, The Guardian, (The Telegraph is behind a pay-wall) all explain what it is, what the implications are and that it's only been invoked once (after 9/11) but none of them are frothing at the mouth calling for it to be implemented and WW3 to start.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2022 17:56]
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| Ukraine on 18:07 - Nov 17 with 2305 views | Boston |
| Ukraine on 16:52 - Nov 17 by gobbles |
Ukraine is our friend. Most of the accusations thrown at Zelensky are merely dirt originating in Russia as a means to break alliances with the west and spread on the web or right-wing media by people who use phrases like "MSM". |
Countries don't have friends, they have interests. Zelensky is an important interest for the US, he will be backed until there's another interest. | |
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| Ukraine (n/t) on 18:35 - Nov 17 with 2268 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Ukraine (n/t) on 17:56 - Nov 17 by Juzzie |
I've had a look and can't find any.
The Mail, The Sun, The Mirror, The Metro, The Guardian, (The Telegraph is behind a pay-wall) all explain what it is, what the implications are and that it's only been invoked once (after 9/11) but none of them are frothing at the mouth calling for it to be implemented and WW3 to start.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2022 17:56]
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Quite. | | | |
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| Ukraine (n/t) on 11:01 - Nov 18 with 2026 views | Sonofpugwash |
| Ukraine (n/t) on 17:56 - Nov 17 by Juzzie |
I've had a look and can't find any.
The Mail, The Sun, The Mirror, The Metro, The Guardian, (The Telegraph is behind a pay-wall) all explain what it is, what the implications are and that it's only been invoked once (after 9/11) but none of them are frothing at the mouth calling for it to be implemented and WW3 to start.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2022 17:56]
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Not been reading the Daily Express for the last few years then. | |
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| Ukraine (n/t) on 11:13 - Nov 18 with 2029 views | Juzzie |
| Ukraine (n/t) on 11:01 - Nov 18 by Sonofpugwash |
Not been reading the Daily Express for the last few years then. |
oooh, no, I didn't look that one up!
Well, one paper is hardly a representation of the whole media spectrum and besides, most of the red tops are just comics nowadays. Everything is sensationalism click-bait designed to tell people how to think and certain 'papers even go so far as to instill fear & hatred. | | | |
| Ukraine on 11:23 - Nov 18 with 2012 views | Orthodox_Hoop |
| Ukraine on 15:43 - Nov 17 by swisscottage |
Someone comes into your house with a gun.
Kills your dog.
Sh!ts on your floor
Rapes and skills your first daughter
Sets up shop in your living room.
He continues to taunt you and occasionally shoots through the ceiling into your bedroom where you've barricaded yourself in with the family.
He cuts off the water and electricity and shouts up that he's going to kill you all and take over your house unless you just give it to him .. and then he maybe will kill you and the rest of your family anyway.
Do you give him concession knowing he's just going to come and try and take everything anyway and probably kill or as good as enslave you.
Or do you get out the bigass shotgun your friendly uncle gave you and go to town on the bstrd?
I despise appeasers. They are the enablers of evildoers from Hitler to Stalin and now Putin. |
An interesting analogy. I'm not sure it faithfully portrays the current conflict in Ukraine that has been going on in some form or another since 2014. But I suppose it'll do for those who have little knowledge of the history of the region and suddenly taken an interest in it since Putin's illegal invasion of sovereign Ukraine early this year.
Appeasement was of course invented by the English - it didn't work in 1939. Hitler, however, didn't have an arsenal of world ending nuclear missiles. That idiot in Moscow does. [Post edited 18 Nov 2022 11:24]
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| Ukraine (n/t) on 11:27 - Nov 18 with 2005 views | Northernr |
| Ukraine (n/t) on 11:01 - Nov 18 by Sonofpugwash |
Not been reading the Daily Express for the last few years then. |
The Daily Express? 
Isn't it about the time of year for them to be predicting 150 days of snow or something? |  | | |
| Ukraine on 11:30 - Nov 18 with 1998 views | Rs_Holy |
| Ukraine on 15:43 - Nov 17 by swisscottage |
Someone comes into your house with a gun.
Kills your dog.
Sh!ts on your floor
Rapes and skills your first daughter
Sets up shop in your living room.
He continues to taunt you and occasionally shoots through the ceiling into your bedroom where you've barricaded yourself in with the family.
He cuts off the water and electricity and shouts up that he's going to kill you all and take over your house unless you just give it to him .. and then he maybe will kill you and the rest of your family anyway.
Do you give him concession knowing he's just going to come and try and take everything anyway and probably kill or as good as enslave you.
Or do you get out the bigass shotgun your friendly uncle gave you and go to town on the bstrd?
I despise appeasers. They are the enablers of evildoers from Hitler to Stalin and now Putin. |
someone's going to come on here in an minute and tell you that you forgot the bloke with the gun has been dating your rogue second daughter for 8 years. She has locked herself into her bedroom and declared she wants him to move in with her.
Taking all that into account, I still agree with you Swiss ... the daughter and bloke with the gun should move into into his flat! |  | | |
| Ukraine (n/t) on 11:37 - Nov 18 with 1993 views | GloryHunter |
| Ukraine (n/t) on 11:27 - Nov 18 by Northernr |
The Daily Express?
Isn't it about the time of year for them to be predicting 150 days of snow or something? |
"Met Office issues amber alert for 'life-threatening' floods as weather sparks travel chaos"
Will that do you? |  | | |
| Ukraine on 12:00 - Nov 18 with 1950 views | hubble |
| Ukraine on 16:52 - Nov 17 by gobbles |
Ukraine is our friend. Most of the accusations thrown at Zelensky are merely dirt originating in Russia as a means to break alliances with the west and spread on the web or right-wing media by people who use phrases like "MSM". |
Really didn't want to get involved in this debate, but I have to take issue with this statement. Nothing about this situation is as straightforward as it's portrayed in the Western media, and Zelensky is a case in point. Zelensky was a comedian (some say he still is) in a popular Ukrainian TV series before he was elevated to the role of president, running on a so-called 'anti-corruption' ticket. Rather an unlikely turn of events, don't you think? However, in the Guardian's investigation into the 'Pandora Papers' relating to money laundering and offshore banking, it was discovered that Zelensky and wife (and cohorts, many of them Russian) had huge sums in offshore bank accounts. It's not hard to join the dots here, if you look at what a hard-on the USA has had for going up against Russia (particularly, and intestingly, the Democrats - many predicted things would escalate quickly if they got back into power, and so it has proved to be). The Americans do have serious form in setting up proxy rulers whenever it suits them (I don't think anyone can deny that), and surely Zelensky is a case in point? If you - or anyone else - cares to do some research, you might not be surprised to discover that one of the things that this conflict certainly is, is an absolutely monumental money-laudering operation. It's one reason the good old Americans love going to war so much - it's always a win-win for the military-industrial complex.
And complex is a good word for this whole situation. Yes, Putin is a war-mongering dictator, but also, yes, despite saying it would never happen, all the surrounding Western nations were inducted into NATO, bar.. yes, Ukraine, and also, yes, the Americans did have several bio-weapons labs in Ukraine as well as a whole raft of other vested interests, and yes, was it merely coincidental that both Hunter Biden and Chelsea Clinton (to name but two Democrat elites) had been over there looking after 'business interests'?
No one comes out of this looking good; it's a revolting, hideous scenario, in which, as always, ordinary folk are the victims and the cannon fodder. To my mind, it's helpful to view the world powers as Mafia gangs; they certainly behave like that - and all this BS about truth and democracy the US rolls out each time (Iraq, Libya... you name it).... well, come on.
I think it's naive to see this as anything other than a very, very nasty set-up by competing mafia gangs, in a long, long history of doing exactly this kind of thing. And, I'm afraid to say, the media is nearly always complicit. [Post edited 18 Nov 2022 12:01]
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| Ukraine on 12:09 - Nov 18 with 1932 views | Rs_Holy |
| Ukraine on 12:00 - Nov 18 by hubble |
Really didn't want to get involved in this debate, but I have to take issue with this statement. Nothing about this situation is as straightforward as it's portrayed in the Western media, and Zelensky is a case in point. Zelensky was a comedian (some say he still is) in a popular Ukrainian TV series before he was elevated to the role of president, running on a so-called 'anti-corruption' ticket. Rather an unlikely turn of events, don't you think? However, in the Guardian's investigation into the 'Pandora Papers' relating to money laundering and offshore banking, it was discovered that Zelensky and wife (and cohorts, many of them Russian) had huge sums in offshore bank accounts. It's not hard to join the dots here, if you look at what a hard-on the USA has had for going up against Russia (particularly, and intestingly, the Democrats - many predicted things would escalate quickly if they got back into power, and so it has proved to be). The Americans do have serious form in setting up proxy rulers whenever it suits them (I don't think anyone can deny that), and surely Zelensky is a case in point? If you - or anyone else - cares to do some research, you might not be surprised to discover that one of the things that this conflict certainly is, is an absolutely monumental money-laudering operation. It's one reason the good old Americans love going to war so much - it's always a win-win for the military-industrial complex.
And complex is a good word for this whole situation. Yes, Putin is a war-mongering dictator, but also, yes, despite saying it would never happen, all the surrounding Western nations were inducted into NATO, bar.. yes, Ukraine, and also, yes, the Americans did have several bio-weapons labs in Ukraine as well as a whole raft of other vested interests, and yes, was it merely coincidental that both Hunter Biden and Chelsea Clinton (to name but two Democrat elites) had been over there looking after 'business interests'?
No one comes out of this looking good; it's a revolting, hideous scenario, in which, as always, ordinary folk are the victims and the cannon fodder. To my mind, it's helpful to view the world powers as Mafia gangs; they certainly behave like that - and all this BS about truth and democracy the US rolls out each time (Iraq, Libya... you name it).... well, come on.
I think it's naive to see this as anything other than a very, very nasty set-up by competing mafia gangs, in a long, long history of doing exactly this kind of thing. And, I'm afraid to say, the media is nearly always complicit. [Post edited 18 Nov 2022 12:01]
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thank God Putin has redressed the balance and no more countries are going to join NATO. | | | |
| Ukraine (n/t) on 12:14 - Nov 18 with 1921 views | Sharpy36 |
| Ukraine (n/t) on 11:27 - Nov 18 by Northernr |
The Daily Express?
Isn't it about the time of year for them to be predicting 150 days of snow or something? |
Very much like the msm/politicians and every other fringe group who have skin in the game who almost every year predict we have weeks/days/hours to save the NHS. Same as those who have been telling us over many decades that we have so little time to save the planet. |  |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| Ukraine on 12:23 - Nov 18 with 1900 views | traininvain |
| Ukraine on 12:09 - Nov 18 by Rs_Holy |
thank God Putin has redressed the balance and no more countries are going to join NATO. |
Agreed. And I can’t wait for those pesky warmongering Democrats to lose the 2024 election to Donald Trump’s Republicans. Hunter Biden’s laptop etc. Conspiracy bingo!
Heaven forbid that a celebrity TV star could become the leader of a major country. Only in Ukraine… |  | | |
| Ukraine on 12:29 - Nov 18 with 1885 views | kensalriser |
One could observe that Zelensky had and was offered the option to flee Ukraine and no doubt go to live in great luxury in exile with all his laundered billions, but instead chose to stay to lead the fight for his country's independence at great personal danger. [Post edited 18 Nov 2022 12:44]
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| Ukraine on 14:25 - Nov 18 with 1739 views | NewBee |
| Ukraine on 11:23 - Nov 18 by Orthodox_Hoop |
An interesting analogy. I'm not sure it faithfully portrays the current conflict in Ukraine that has been going on in some form or another since 2014. But I suppose it'll do for those who have little knowledge of the history of the region and suddenly taken an interest in it since Putin's illegal invasion of sovereign Ukraine early this year.
Appeasement was of course invented by the English - it didn't work in 1939. Hitler, however, didn't have an arsenal of world ending nuclear missiles. That idiot in Moscow does. [Post edited 18 Nov 2022 11:24]
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Appeasement may - or may not - have been invented by the English, but if it was, I think you'll find that it considerably predates 1939!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danegeld
More generally, while "appeasement" has become a dirty word since WWII, it is often forgotten that right up until September 1939 and the invasion of Poland, it was actually widely popular in Britain - witness the widespread popularity of Chamberlain when he flew back into Croydon to declare "Peace in our Time" etc
And it shouldn't be hard to understand why. Generally, a desire to make peace and avoid war is a good thing. And in Chamberlain's case, coming relatively soon after the Great War, when millions had been slaughtered, it was entirley reasonable to want to avoid further carnage if at all possible.
So his desire to preserve the peace should not be disdained, rather it was his misjudgement in assessing Hitler's real motives, and the latter's assertion that annexing the Sudetenland would be his final (legitimate) demand.
Which brings us neatly back to Ukraine. It is entirely understandable that Ukraine and the West should want to avoid unecessary conflict with Russia. Which could mean, for example, Ukraine not being admitted to NATO, or there being no re-acquisition by Ukraine of the nuclear weapons which they gave up after 1991.
And had that been all which Putin wanted, it would not have been unreasonable to "appease" him [sic].
But just as Hitler successiively gave signals to his real intention by first re-arming, then militarising the Rhineland, then making the Anschluss with Austria, and then the Sudetenland etc, we should have read the signs with Putin: Georgia, Transdeniestria, Chechnya and finally Crimea.
Of course when Hitler earlier viewed events and concluded (wrongly) that he could go ahead and invade Poland without repercussions, similarly Putin miscalculated after Crimea that he could invade Ukraine, quickly and easily, and the West would do nothing.
As the philosopher Santayana once said: "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it" | | | |
| Ukraine on 15:17 - Nov 18 with 1674 views | NewBee |
| Ukraine on 12:00 - Nov 18 by hubble |
Really didn't want to get involved in this debate, but I have to take issue with this statement. Nothing about this situation is as straightforward as it's portrayed in the Western media, and Zelensky is a case in point. Zelensky was a comedian (some say he still is) in a popular Ukrainian TV series before he was elevated to the role of president, running on a so-called 'anti-corruption' ticket. Rather an unlikely turn of events, don't you think? However, in the Guardian's investigation into the 'Pandora Papers' relating to money laundering and offshore banking, it was discovered that Zelensky and wife (and cohorts, many of them Russian) had huge sums in offshore bank accounts. It's not hard to join the dots here, if you look at what a hard-on the USA has had for going up against Russia (particularly, and intestingly, the Democrats - many predicted things would escalate quickly if they got back into power, and so it has proved to be). The Americans do have serious form in setting up proxy rulers whenever it suits them (I don't think anyone can deny that), and surely Zelensky is a case in point? If you - or anyone else - cares to do some research, you might not be surprised to discover that one of the things that this conflict certainly is, is an absolutely monumental money-laudering operation. It's one reason the good old Americans love going to war so much - it's always a win-win for the military-industrial complex.
And complex is a good word for this whole situation. Yes, Putin is a war-mongering dictator, but also, yes, despite saying it would never happen, all the surrounding Western nations were inducted into NATO, bar.. yes, Ukraine, and also, yes, the Americans did have several bio-weapons labs in Ukraine as well as a whole raft of other vested interests, and yes, was it merely coincidental that both Hunter Biden and Chelsea Clinton (to name but two Democrat elites) had been over there looking after 'business interests'?
No one comes out of this looking good; it's a revolting, hideous scenario, in which, as always, ordinary folk are the victims and the cannon fodder. To my mind, it's helpful to view the world powers as Mafia gangs; they certainly behave like that - and all this BS about truth and democracy the US rolls out each time (Iraq, Libya... you name it).... well, come on.
I think it's naive to see this as anything other than a very, very nasty set-up by competing mafia gangs, in a long, long history of doing exactly this kind of thing. And, I'm afraid to say, the media is nearly always complicit. [Post edited 18 Nov 2022 12:01]
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OK, for the sake of argument, I'll go with your narrative.
What do you imagine we (UK, USA, the West etc) should have done when Putin's tanks rolled into Ukraine? | | | |
| Ukraine on 16:01 - Nov 18 with 1627 views | gobbles |
| Ukraine on 12:00 - Nov 18 by hubble |
Really didn't want to get involved in this debate, but I have to take issue with this statement. Nothing about this situation is as straightforward as it's portrayed in the Western media, and Zelensky is a case in point. Zelensky was a comedian (some say he still is) in a popular Ukrainian TV series before he was elevated to the role of president, running on a so-called 'anti-corruption' ticket. Rather an unlikely turn of events, don't you think? However, in the Guardian's investigation into the 'Pandora Papers' relating to money laundering and offshore banking, it was discovered that Zelensky and wife (and cohorts, many of them Russian) had huge sums in offshore bank accounts. It's not hard to join the dots here, if you look at what a hard-on the USA has had for going up against Russia (particularly, and intestingly, the Democrats - many predicted things would escalate quickly if they got back into power, and so it has proved to be). The Americans do have serious form in setting up proxy rulers whenever it suits them (I don't think anyone can deny that), and surely Zelensky is a case in point? If you - or anyone else - cares to do some research, you might not be surprised to discover that one of the things that this conflict certainly is, is an absolutely monumental money-laudering operation. It's one reason the good old Americans love going to war so much - it's always a win-win for the military-industrial complex.
And complex is a good word for this whole situation. Yes, Putin is a war-mongering dictator, but also, yes, despite saying it would never happen, all the surrounding Western nations were inducted into NATO, bar.. yes, Ukraine, and also, yes, the Americans did have several bio-weapons labs in Ukraine as well as a whole raft of other vested interests, and yes, was it merely coincidental that both Hunter Biden and Chelsea Clinton (to name but two Democrat elites) had been over there looking after 'business interests'?
No one comes out of this looking good; it's a revolting, hideous scenario, in which, as always, ordinary folk are the victims and the cannon fodder. To my mind, it's helpful to view the world powers as Mafia gangs; they certainly behave like that - and all this BS about truth and democracy the US rolls out each time (Iraq, Libya... you name it).... well, come on.
I think it's naive to see this as anything other than a very, very nasty set-up by competing mafia gangs, in a long, long history of doing exactly this kind of thing. And, I'm afraid to say, the media is nearly always complicit. [Post edited 18 Nov 2022 12:01]
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I am well aware of the Pandora Papers.
The Pandora Papers showed Zelensky set up off-shore accounts in 2012, to hide the earnings from the production company he owned. That was seven years before he ran for president.
Off-shore accounts are often used by rich people to hide their earnings from tax - just look at Jimmy Carr and Gary Barlow, let alone our barons of industry who run off the Monaco to hide with sports stars. That doesn't mean he is syphoning off Ukrainian interests, was laundering mafia money or is indeed a corrupt leader.
Indeed, the Guardian journalist who revealed the Pandora Papers, Luke Harding, is one of Zelensky's biggest fans and has written plenty and done podcasts about him.
I don't know Zelensky, but two people I have spoken to a lot over time are Vitali and Wladimir Klitschko. Vitali, as I am sure you are aware, is mayor of Kiev - a multi-millionaire through boxing, who had a home in Los Angeles at one point, who went home to fight for democracy in his homeland. Wladimir, probably even richer, has a kid with a Hollywood star and homes in Florida and Germany, went back when the invasion happened to stand by his brother.
They stand by Zelensky as a decent guy and I would stand by the Klitschkos as good men. [Post edited 18 Nov 2022 16:08]
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| Ukraine on 16:13 - Nov 18 with 1600 views | hubble |
| Ukraine on 16:01 - Nov 18 by gobbles |
I am well aware of the Pandora Papers.
The Pandora Papers showed Zelensky set up off-shore accounts in 2012, to hide the earnings from the production company he owned. That was seven years before he ran for president.
Off-shore accounts are often used by rich people to hide their earnings from tax - just look at Jimmy Carr and Gary Barlow, let alone our barons of industry who run off the Monaco to hide with sports stars. That doesn't mean he is syphoning off Ukrainian interests, was laundering mafia money or is indeed a corrupt leader.
Indeed, the Guardian journalist who revealed the Pandora Papers, Luke Harding, is one of Zelensky's biggest fans and has written plenty and done podcasts about him.
I don't know Zelensky, but two people I have spoken to a lot over time are Vitali and Wladimir Klitschko. Vitali, as I am sure you are aware, is mayor of Kiev - a multi-millionaire through boxing, who had a home in Los Angeles at one point, who went home to fight for democracy in his homeland. Wladimir, probably even richer, has a kid with a Hollywood star and homes in Florida and Germany, went back when the invasion happened to stand by his brother.
They stand by Zelensky as a decent guy and I would stand by the Klitschkos as good men. [Post edited 18 Nov 2022 16:08]
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An endorsement from Luke Harding, the man behind the the 'Russiagate' farrago, is hardly a good reference. | |
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| Ukraine on 16:40 - Nov 18 with 1571 views | gobbles |
| Ukraine on 16:13 - Nov 18 by hubble |
An endorsement from Luke Harding, the man behind the the 'Russiagate' farrago, is hardly a good reference. |
Your entire point was based on the Pandora Papers, which was a story written by him and (I believe) three others.
The Pandora Papers show that Zelensky was partners in a television production company called Kvartal 95, they set up offshore companies that bought property overseas. That is far from unusual. He sold his shares in the companies before he ran to be president.
According to Forbes, Zelensky is worth about $20 million, hardly unusual for a big TV star.
You made the leap from him having stashed earnings from his entertainment career off-shore to him running the country like a mafia organisation. That's you making an enormous leap to suit a very different narrative.
But that is often the way Russia wants to portray things - people think everyone if awful, so the basic facts of invasion, mass murder, rapes, torture, rocket attacks on housing estates, executions is hidden beneath a narrative of "yeah, but Ukraine are run by crooks too". [Post edited 18 Nov 2022 16:55]
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| Ukraine on 17:14 - Nov 18 with 1510 views | hubble |
| Ukraine on 16:40 - Nov 18 by gobbles |
Your entire point was based on the Pandora Papers, which was a story written by him and (I believe) three others.
The Pandora Papers show that Zelensky was partners in a television production company called Kvartal 95, they set up offshore companies that bought property overseas. That is far from unusual. He sold his shares in the companies before he ran to be president.
According to Forbes, Zelensky is worth about $20 million, hardly unusual for a big TV star.
You made the leap from him having stashed earnings from his entertainment career off-shore to him running the country like a mafia organisation. That's you making an enormous leap to suit a very different narrative.
But that is often the way Russia wants to portray things - people think everyone if awful, so the basic facts of invasion, mass murder, rapes, torture, rocket attacks on housing estates, executions is hidden beneath a narrative of "yeah, but Ukraine are run by crooks too". [Post edited 18 Nov 2022 16:55]
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It's far from my entire point, is it? But you'll see what you want to see and believe what you want to believe. My main point was in fact that this is a complex situation, but the same old players have their grubby fingers all over it.
(Edit - I should add, I am far from convinced by your argument that Zelensky's huge sums (in which he was in cahoots with several Russian players, which seems dubious in itself) hidden in offshore bank accounts are just 'innocent' like Gary Barlow. It's just one of a raft of things, that, should you care to research outside of your usual sources, point to Zelensky being a willing American proxy. This is not in any way a justification for Russia's invasion; as I said, I'm looking at the bigger picture and seeing the same M.O. that we've seen so many times before in geopolitics).
[Post edited 18 Nov 2022 17:59]
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